School daze: Do you need a degree to be a real engineer?
If a company of such influence as Apple could be born with two of the founders lacking a college degree, one has to wonder: Do you need to go to school to be an engineer?
Suzanne Deffree, Managing Editor, Online -- EDN, November 3, 2011
During a recent conversation over lunch with some co-workers,
I made a statement that turned a few heads. One co-worker’s
daughter had plans to look at colleges over the weekend, and
I noted that my husband and I don’t expect our son to go
to college. This comment was somewhat surprising because
both my husband and I are college graduates who look back
fondly on our days in school and because our son is a toddler and his college
years are more than a decade away.My point, however, was that, with the rising cost of a college education and so many success stories about people lacking a degree, he may choose a path that does not ultimately include a stop at college.
This lunchtime conversation
occurred a few days after ESC
(Embedded Systems Conference)
Boston 2011, where EDN and its sister
publications hosted a networking
event for students and young engineering
professionals as well as experienced
engineers (Reference 1). About 25
people attended, including some of the
smartest 20-somethings I’ve had the
pleasure of meeting in the more than 10
years I’ve been covering the electronics
industry.
Many of these newbies were from
local universities, and all spoke positively
about their schools. Yet, college
for some of these young men and
women seemed more like an avenue to
opportunities than an isolated learning
experience. In speaking with these students,
I heard them talk more enthusiastically
about their hands-on efforts at
internships, student groups, lab time, or
design competitions than about their
classes.For some, college can be a stifling experience. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak made statements to that effect a few months earlier when he spoke at ESC Silicon Valley 2011. The late Steve Jobs also had made similar comments on numerous occasions.
Two of the three minds behind Apple lack a college degree. If a company of such influence and that offers products that dominate the market on a worldwide scale could be born with two of the three founders lacking a sheepskin between them, I wonder: Do you need to go to school to be an engineer, or is that idea just a mindset?
Clearly, you must educate yourself and always be learning, but do you need to learn at a college or a university? Does an engineering hobbyist deserve the same respect as a professional electrical engineer?
By the time you read this column, my son will be 20 months old, a far cry from the 20-year-old students we chatted with at ESC Boston a few short weeks ago. However, because I work at EDN and sometimes read the articles to him instead of nursery rhymes, he’s already—I am convinced—showing the early signs of STEM (science/technology/ engineering/mathematics) talent. He takes apart everything he can, methodically categorizes his toys, and does some basic math. In other words, he has what EDN Technical Editor Margery Conner and Dilbert creator Scott Adams describe as “the knack.”
My son will grow up to be what he wants to be, but, if he decides to pursue a career in engineering, will he need to go to college to do so? Please let me know so that I can start looking for a second—and, perhaps, a third—mortgage now.
Contact me at suzanne.deffree@ubm.com.
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Talkback
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Just in response to Bubba Dave and probably still relevant to the article, there are two more aspects of engineering here.
One is the official recognition of the degree. There are pro and con arguments. Most of the pro arguments arise from safty issues and when liability comes into play. In many cases such as Bubba you could say that seeking an officially recognized degree is just a waste of time!. The problem here is that the pointy heads think otherwise. Again it might be that new regulations force companies to give titles according to official accreditations. The problem with giving titles without official degrees will quickly fall into wrong hands and will create a really gray area.
The second point is the keeping uptodate. After 10-15 years we all know that a lot of our engineering subjects become outdated and irrelevant, let alone forgetting it all.
So do we question the validity of the degree, in the same way that we value a non-degreed who has leanred-by-experience.
I would certainly like to see a regulation in place that if you don't practice as an engineer in the same subject that you got your degree, for a certain number of years, you cannot use the title and have to be re-assessed. That will teach a large number of pointy heads about what is more valuable.
Of course, as sweet as this is, we know that this won't happen.
Like with many other sticky points in a career it is best to discuss it with the pointy heads directly, as the middlemen will try to cover their backside more than you. If they are stupid enough to upset their most valuable assets, I would say don't stay with those mob, because they will make much more stupid decisions soon.
A. Moini - 2012-5-1 17:00:51 PST -
I have an Associate Degree from a college that provided a considerabley more theory and mathmatics based AA degree than most. I went on to the university environment (EE) and covered all of the pertinent theory there but I did not obtain my degree due to some family issues.
In my 25 plus year professional career, I have worked all but the first couple of years as an electrical engineer (doing design work) and I have held the title of Senior Electrical Engineer for most of that time.
Because I have a very strong drive and I have stayed technically ahead of my coworkers, I have had the opportunity to design advanced electronics including PC mother boards, handheld computers (including various FPGAs and CPLDs), metal-masked gate arrays, high speed communications, uP systems (for a countless number of applications), uP based motor controls, switching power supplies and a myriad of spooky military/government systems. I handle all of my division's EMC design problems (because I know that theory better than anyone else). I am the go-to guy to solve problems (troubleshoot things that no one else can figure out) and architect difficult systems.
Interestingly, all of the sudden (and after 9.5 years of employment with them), my company has decided that my title should be downgraded to something less than engineer. This edict comes from the corporate (not division) level. My peers and management within my division are concerned (rightfully so) that I will move to a job in a more progressive, results based company (a start-up, et cetera) or go back to one of the many companies that I've proved myself to in the past. Part of the concern from my current management is that we often get contracts and accomplish things based on my ideas, my technology, my guts and my experience and our division will loose a significant amount of business if I leave.
All of the above has me in a bit of a quandry -- I haven't yet decided what to do.
With all of that said, I agree that not many people without formal engineering backgrounds can do what I do and what I have done. In fact, not many degreed engineers can keep up. Many the engineers from our customers and subcontractors assume that I have an advanced degree (don't ask, don't tell).
I would be interesting to hear your thoughts about my plight.
D
Bubba Dave - 2012-3-1 11:22:16 PST -
I am a typical engineer with phd and did years of research and taught at uni, and have worked in industry.
I would say this is a typical "wrong conclusion based on exceptions!"
I think the conclusions cannot be made based on a very small proportion of success stories, and as Ken Thomas mentioned these had the support of great many engineers.
I don't think we can ignore thousands of successful engineers at all capacities because a couple of college drop-outs made it big.
Also these small number of drop-outs have had little technical contributions on their own, and their success has been mainly in managerial roles.
What really should instead be highlighted is their passion for what they did, and it has nothing to do with their college education.
So, the answer to the question is YES absolutely, because you need a good many years of focused learning to start you off in the direction. If someone is passionate enough and has the means to do this in other ways and outside uni, then good on them!
Of course you can always find the kid with rich parents who will never use anything that they did (not learned) in college, except for the title, but you cannot muddle the argument with exceptions from either side.
We need great universities that can educate engineers and hopefully spark the passion into them, not make them dropout.
A. Moini - 2011-30-12 23:28:08 PST -
Even with a formal degree you can't call yourself an engineer, legally, until you pass the PE exam and other criteria required in your state. My state, in its posted requirements, requires you to work 5 years under the mentorship of a PE. Apparently there are some work arounds but they are not widely disseminated.
Also a lot of people are graduating with degrees but don't know how to build or do anything. An education without talent in the field will get you no where except in debt.
Carl Porter - 2011-30-12 19:48:25 PST -
Hi you all.
I believe I may had the chance to be on both sides, educated and not educated as an engineer.
The first abut 10 years of my engineering experience, I was as an electronic technician, and according to my reputation a very good design technician-engineer, starting essentially professionally at the age of 13. Mostly because of the push and encouragement of my father who was a college educated, clever electrical engineer. I some time later wound up at a scientific research institute as a design technician/engineer. What that meant was that what I was allowed to do was to first design the electronics and then later build and test it. I wrote the specification, designed the circuit, built it and then tested it to my own written specification.
This is a very tough school to go through and be honest to the truth at each level.
Later my boss said that I had to attend college because nobody would believe how good I appeared to be without a solid university education. Did I really need the Stanford degree? Probably not, I would have learned on my own, but nobody would have believed that I knew what I was talking about without that Stanford and Harvard education.
Obviously, today nothing I learned in the universities is relevant anymore, but with that educational reputation other engineers and scientists believe I know what I am talking about.
In summary: You really do not need that expensive education if you are exceptional, but if you are just plain above average you need that education degree so that your reputation will be sustained.
Both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did go to college for a while, but discovered that they had better things to do and quit.
Hans J Weedon BSEE Stanford and HEPL Harvard.
Hans J Weedon - 2011-30-12 14:04:13 PST
