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Electronics engineers speak out on engineering education, H1-B visas, outsourcing
EDN publishes the results of a recent online survey that asked engineers to share their opinions on a range of career issues, including compensation, the state of engineering education, and H1-B visas.
By Staff -- EDN, 10/18/2007
We recently invited EDN.com visitors to complete the following survey on engineering career and education issues. In all, 517 engineers completed the survey during the 24 hours it was open. The results, including many unedited comments from survey respondents, follow.
For analysis, please see:
- H1-B questions hit EDN readers’ hot button.
- Engineering as a career—or is it a cognitive state?
- Career contentment: Encouraging (albeit confusing) survey results
1. How many hours per week do you work?
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2. Do you believe your project schedules are reasonable?
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3. Do you believe you are fairly compensated?
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4. Do you believe executive management at your company is overcompensated?
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5. How many companies have you worked for in your career?
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6. Do you believe the government should expand the number of H1-B visas?
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7. From the following, choose the answer that best describes your feelings about the H1-B program.
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8. If you could do it over again, would you pursue an engineering career?
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9. Would you advise your children to pursue an engineering career?
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10. In your opinion, is the quality of engineering education increasing or decreasing?
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11. Please share any comments that you have about any of the issues raised in this survey:
(Selected comments follow. Add your own comments.)
I would steer my kids away from electronics engineering to something like civil or mechanical engineering, if they show the interest. Electronics is being ruined by relentless out of control downward price pressure, particularly in places like China. My vendors in cn complain that they can no longer trust component vendors there because of the price pressure- people are selling counterfeit and even used parts disguised as new, and of course there's no traceability. This 'Walmartization' of the electronics industry now gives us TV sets and appliances that last maybe 5 years and other horror stories. Making electrolytic capacitors that last for more than a year or two has seemingly become a lost art, at least for non-mil spec parts. It's all just a bit too insane these days...
Engineering is not what it used to be. Employers are cheap now, and are more likely to use a lower wage person such as someone with a H1-B visa, or fresh out of school, or even outsource to offshore than use local experienced people.
The US schools need to do a better job.
Life is what you make of it. Reguardless of the number of H1-B visas or whatever. I have been a freelance consultant for almost 30 years with three regular jobs, in good or bad times you can make a living if you try.
Challenge young people and put tools in their hands to tinker with.
Engineering students in the US lack practical skills. Germany requires more than 20 weeks of internship before a student can proceed from the basics to pursuing his major. I am from Germany and my practical skills had a large part in getting the job that I have today.
I think that education is being dumbed down to accommodate people that don't want to work for a degree.
On question 7, My career was not harmed, but others have been. Engineering jobs are going off shore due to the cost being cheaper there, not due to a shortage of qualified engineers in the US.
By employing the "no-one left behind" policy, training is to the average ability at best and to the slowest in the class at worst.
Companies that feel outsourcing engineering to contractors from out of the country or to firms based in foreign countries typically do it for the wrong reasons. Most of the time, the expected payback is never realized, nor is there any type of increase in efficiency or quality.
I believe there is strong need for informing young students, high school age to early college, of all the different types of engineering jobs are available. While R&D is by far the most common career choice, there are lots of other options including sales, support, marketing, and management that these students should know more about. Engineering is about solving problems and we need educate people on how fun that can be!
I am not living in US and I will not use H1-B program, but maybe my children do.
The USA needs qualified engineers to support all the service positions.
Having leveraged my engineering background to move into a CEO position, where I cannot be 'snowballed' like other CEO's, you bet I would recommend an engineering career!
The choices for question 7 do not represent everyone's opinion. My career was not harmed but I do not believe we need to increase H1-B visas.
"If you have a passion for understanding how things work, then engineering is the thing to do. If your passion is to make money or do something easier to understand for the dollars paid... look elsewhere.
While certainly not all, a fair number of new engineers have not had the opportunity to "tinker" with devices either mechanical or electrical. Because of this they approach engineering with less curiosity and more of a willingness to accept how things should be done. Increasing legal involvement also dictates risk mitigation and restricts new approaches that may, in fact, be better.
I live and work in Ireland, but regarding the shortage of qualified engineers - the same is true.
I believe there is a shortage of qualified engineers but most companies are not willing to hire laid-off workers. I think there is a unfair bias against these workers. From my wife's experience, the potential employers that do give an interview are actually stealing ideas from these experienced workers and then not giving them a chance.
10. lack of understanding basic techniques versus increased quality in computer science.
question 7 did not include an option that I do not believe in expansion of the H1-B program, but I have not been personally harmed. This will certainly skew the results.
#9 if this question is asking would I discourage my kids from pursuing an engineering career the answer would be no. I would only advise them to pursue an engineering career if I thought they had the aptitude and ability.
I think the H1-B program has many holes. It is like indentured servitude. Many of my colleagues in the past who were H1-B holders were underpaid compared to others in similar positions, were forced to work long hours and weekends as they were threatened with losing their jobs. If they lost their job they lost their place in the permanent residency line.
"There are not enough possible answers for the question #7 above. My answer is: My career has not been directly harmed by an H1-B Engineer, but I think the program has been proven to be harmful to the profession for resident engineers.
I'm 53 and only within the past 5 years have I felt I'm getting a proper income. With student loans to repay, my 20's were a horror, 30's were bettter, 40's OK. I made a lot of sacrifices to get where I am today.
I think that H1-B visa levels should remain as they are. It is good to have some foreign workers in our field, but there are still many unemployed or underemployed engineers, especially older ones. There is much age discrimination among engineering employers.
I believe the quality of engineering education is increasing but could still be better. For example, many of the top schools do not have enough hands-on experience opportunities.
I was not harmed by nor do I oppose H1-B visas, but I feel we should do more to develop the engineering talent in this country. There was not a appropriate answer available for question Seven.
H1-B can be a good resource however it appears to being abused by hiring non US workers at a lower wage in some situation.
Advising children: I would let them choose, however, I would provide them information.
Engineering education: (in US) is worse at college level, better at graduate school.
As far as the H1-B program, I don't know if we are short on qualified engineers in the US, but the people I work with who are here on the H1-B program are very hard-working individuals. They have gone to great lengths to obtain an engineering career that I take for granted. For these highly qualified people, once they have gone through the effort to get here, it should be made easier, not harder, for them to stay and continue being valuable, contributing members of our society.
I don't think we need to increase H1-B's, we need to make Engineering education more affordable and attractive.
I am concerned about the outsourcing of engineering and how it will affect our country long term. America has always been a country of innovators. We will lose that expertise if we don't make some changes soon!
"I used to be on a H1-B, but have relocated back to India. It had been a great opportunity for me I had lots to learn both technically and culturally.
The H1-B program helps in getting great talent and in sustaining innovation.
On education in general: It is not addressing the study of science in a serious and systematic way.
We appear to be misunderstood, underappreciated and overlooked by the corporations and the public at large. Outsourcing off shore may make sense in the short term, but long term what will happen to North America if all Engineering is either outsourced off shore or turned into a $25,000.00 a year "job". I could make more money working on the assembly line at Ford, GM or Chrysler...........what is wrong with that picture?? It is simply not fair, reasonable and equitable.
My answer to question #8 is not shown. I do not think we should increase the number of H1-NB visas. Keep it the same or decrease them.
"We need a program to get more students into a career of engineering. I believe that would be a lot better for technologies to stay in this country. What foreign students learn can be returned to their country, and some cases used against us.
Difficult to maintain work/life balance as an engineer these days.
Job satisfaction seems to be more impacted by management than the job itself. I love engineering, but management believes that they are the only ones capable of making good decisions so they don't allow us to do so. THey have all power and we have none. This makes engineering nealy unbearable."
H1-B visas would not be needed if more effort were made to get Americans into engineering.
Issues are too complex for simple true/false or yes/no answers.
Maybe this survey is meant for Americans only, but I live in Europe. Anyway, we have the same concerns here about foreign engineers and about engineering, including discussions about H1-B visas. Generally speaking, one should be passionate in what one is doing. For me it is electronics and for others it is art or politics. Those, who have no passion in electronics, should do something else. Countries like US or Europe need excellent engineers and if they are not available in the country, we should "import" them from abroad. It's a win-win situation. That's globalization, isn't it?
Engineering is a great field to work in.
Questions 6 and 7: H1-B visas are a short sighted, short term fix to the issue of shortage of graduates in Engineering and sciences in the US. We need to portray engineers and sciences as attractive professions.
Question 9, 2 of my children are going to university for Engineering, another is in Grad school for Organic Chemistry. The 4th wants to be a lawyer (where have I failed :)).
Question 10, Basics courses like Chemistry, math, English, Social Sciences are not as rigorous. The 3rd and 4th year Engineering courses seem equivalent, although much updated with respect to computers / SW tools.
I talk to engineering students regularly. Very few are US citizens, most are foreign born. The instructors are mainly foreign as well. The quality of instruction is very poor.
#7 The US needs to face reality and realize that giving away technology to foreign countries harms future generations.
Engineering is for people that want to make things work and to change the world. I started in 1967 working on the Apollo project. Later I worked on the Space Shuttle. I would not trade places with anyone. If you want to live and a huge house, travel all over the world, drive a half million dollar car or, what have you become a doctor or lawyer. If we could import more of them we could depress their wages.
Too many American factories are closing and jobs being shifted offshore. Our leadership in semiconductor manufacturing has been stolen away.
The greatest reward of an engineer is the feeling he or she gets everytime he or she solve a problem or design a new circuit or system and watch it runs.
Answer 7 is not close to my feeling, but the choices were very limiting.
I believe that the H1-B visa program allows our country to attract talented people to help our country.
I do believe we have a shortage of qualified engineers in this country. But the H1-B program is a quick fix which, unfortunately, seems to be the only concern of big business.
Engineering is not sold as an exciting career and the moving of manufacturing to lower cost markets has eroded the opportunities for young engineers. Conversely, the fact that design centers still exist in the US is driving the need for more engineers and so there is an influx of overseas people to fill the void.
A shortage of engineers who will not accept a position at a minimum wage does equate to a shortage of engineers. I believe the H1B programs provide a pool of engineers who will accept jobs at less than a reasonable wage; lowering to bar for the rest of the engineers
The best learning grounds for engineers are Electronic companies. Schools are good for building the foundation but by no means can teach the mastery gainable on the job.
We're getting into an ironic situation where foreign engineers working in the US with green cards are finding their jobs being sent back to engineers in their home countries.
Why did you not provide any opportunity for neutral feedback on issues? For example, I am an American citizen who has not been directly affected by H1-B visas. Yet the responses we must choose from all assume we have in some way been either directly positively or negatively affected by this "hot button" issue of the day.
Questions 9 and 10 are just simply bad questions. I would only advise my children to become engineers if they were so inclined. Even then, I would only advise such a career if he or she was truly driven to become an engineer out of passion (as opposed to, say, money). In which case, my opinion wouldn't really matter anyway, would it?
For question 10, you must be kidding. How can you ask such a general question? It's constantly evolving - some schools are better than others, some fields may be increasing in quality while others decline. You only do yourselves and the engineering community a disservice to ask such vague questions and publish the results as being even remotely meaningful.
Oh, and question 7. How about those whose careers may not have been harmed, but who are philosophically and/or politically opposed to the H1-B program? I believe that the way you've asked this question will skew the result toward support for the program.My consulting paid for college educations for our 3 kids, but only one studied physics, and even she abandoned tech and now works in a office. All 3 work in business, and in fact 2 of them make more than I did. So much for my good tech example.
I don't think #7 gave an option I agree with (I put down something that wasn't true because it was a required field). I believe that we need to shore up engineering in this country so that companies don't feel they need H1-B visas to get the job done. My career has not been harmed because of this, and whereas I've seen others that have been, that is not the major point. We don't need to be providing on-the-job education or even college training to export our knowledge outside of the US, because it either outsources jobs, or causes companies to pay less for engineering. If they want the latter, then expect reduced quality and and environment that doesn't encourage engineering in this country. Having worked with outsourced projects, I can honestly say that my workload has gone up trying to accommodate the poorer engineering, communication issues, and other overhead that makes the net cost in outsourcing work larger than had we kept it in this country and paid the higher salaries to begin with. And that doesn't even take into account the brain drain from not encountering and fixing current product issues, thereby giving on context to understand how to make a better, more relevant product for the next generation. All of this just leads to diminishing this country's technological advantage and ability to compete in these areas, which is a real shame given our historical strength in this important area.
H1-B visas are just a way to tip the economic equilibrium to more supply thus keeping wage increases subdued -- all the debate is just noise by people who do not understand or purposely try to obfuscate the situation.
Engineering still seems like a good place to start, but it seems that an engineer needs to plan at what point in his or her career to jump to another more valued profession. Put another way: engineering is a good profession for a person just starting out with a degree, but the salary does not keep-up with other professions as time goes on (of course there are a few exceptions). Sad but true as I consider my future options.
I work at a small company, and there is only one person that works here on a H1=B visa. I haven't had a lot of exposure to it and the issues that it may pose.
The engineering field makes you a very disciplined individual, however the compensation received for the amount of problem solving, head-banging & long-hours is definitely not rewarding. It's easier & more financially benefical to become an accountant or some non-technical person.
The influx of foreign engineers has lowered the quality of products and services delivered by US corporations. It has been done to drive profits at the cost of quality. Very short sighted goals by business, costing American jobs.
Big company management is WAY over paid. I worked for Motorola for over 20 years and left to go to a start up. I am much happier, though I make less money.
We are throwing all our resources to Asia and it will be the downfall of the US. Maybe we can transfer management there and keep engineering and production here!
"I have been an engineer for over 33 years, and it has been a most rewarding and stimulating occupation. Granted, I may have been lucky to pick the right industry and companies, but what an exciting time for technology.
This country needs to focus more on education and work ethics with our children. And less on short term profit thereby minimizing the need for H1-B's!
Large companies are moving all the engineering work overseas which allows them to lower wages and treat engineers badly in the US. They constantly hold the lower wages over our heads and saying we need to work longer hours to keep the work in the US. Benefits are also getting worse. Meanwhile the cost of equipment is no cheaper, and executives are getting richer. Why not force these companies out of the US? If they want to use foreign engineers instead of US engineers then they should not have all the benefits of being located in the US. The young folks see whats going on and are not persuing engineering careers. It's a crime what these companies are getting away with. How can an American worker compete when our cost of living is so much greater? Not to mention the vast difference in the cost of an education!
The situation in India is quite bad. Corruption at Government levels and the apathy of the ruling party towards inflation have harmed all aspects of our society. Education standards are falling, living standards are horrible, and the politicians are out to sell our motherland to the Yankees.
I love being an engineer and have had fantastic opportunities in the past but I feel that many are going away. That is why I would not advise my children to be engineers.
I do not believe that the limited opportunities for the future are from the H1-B program but rather from the short sighted MBA's who keep exporting our jobs to inflate their immediate bonuses. They seem to want to hire only the cheapest engineers possible without regard for their experience. When I was a much younger engineer, an older one told me that engineers are not like doctors who get better with age. They are often discarded and replaced with new models. I thought he was crazy but I have found this to be true.
The design/validation tools have exploded capability for our newest engineers. There is a trend, however, towards a lack of discipline and understanding of how all the pieces fit together. As a result, we see a lot of "re-invention" and "re-discovery". An experienced engineer is worth three new grads.
I have more concern with outsourcing than H1-B visas. We need to keep the engineering and manufacturing jobs in this country.
My concern is about future of Electronics Engineering in this country. The cutting edge technology and "know how" will inevitably move to the region where the actual production and associated problem solving takes place. Quality of education might be increasing, but the field of opportunities is shrinking in the US. Hence, the number of visa's given through H1-B program will self-regulate.
Nowadays, Engineers focus too much on systems and software, lack basic electronics knowledge.
Although I would choose Engineering again, I recognize the devaluation of Engineering that has taken place. This is partly due to foreign engineers and the outsourcing of engineering jobs. However, by having multi-disciplines, US engineers can compete. We also have an advantage wrt having better communication skills, and a better sense of what the US market wants.
I'm a Dutch electronic engineer and within the borders of the European Community nowadays it's possible to work without a visum So on our department we are working now together with several high qualified enginerrs from Spain, portugal, former east-block countries. Great, finally we can do more and more challenging projects!
I believe that there is a growing disconnect between academia and industry. The research climate, which ordinarily would foster mutually beneficial collaboration, has atrophied alarmingly under the current administration.
Engineers have less respect than many years ago. The economists rule the roost and care little about the future of any US based company, they don't plan to be around that long.
I feel that the H1-B program provides employers a supply of "cheap" engineering talent. There are plenty of "over qualified" (older) engineers on the unemployment rosters. I was one for quite some time a few years back, and my recent probes into the current job market have been met with rejection. I am not totally against the H1-B program, my current boss is an example (I like working for him), but I don't think it should be expanded. Hire us old farts, we still have a great deal to contribute.
I would not advise my children to enter engineering careers since the global economy will further decrease economic stability for US consumer electronics companies and the US no longer funds R&D programs with near-term payoff.
As far as the next generation is concerned, I would not advise for or against engineering, for I would rather they do what they enjoy and feel they need to do. To me, engineering is a field that allows us to make an impact to our future in so many ways that it can be used for the greater good. Granted, people do that in many ways, but pure engineering is focused primarily on eliminating issues and making improvements. The only thing that is an obstacle in many cases is the ability to make a profit, which is why I would recommend future generations of engineers to get training in business and law so that they can overcome obstacles that some engineers don't want to deal with today.
I can't believe that asking about H1-B visa is that controversial.
This is helpful to the companies & the government sector to understand the need of the industries.
Questions 6 and 7 are redundant and 7 is difficult to answer. I believe modest increases may be in order but done carefully. I wouldn't say we are short on qualified engineers otherwise my salary would be increasing at a much higher rate. I notice a large number of job postings where the job description is for someone who probably doesn't exist (great number of diverse but specialized qualifications) and if they did, they would never go for the salary range offered. What ever happened to hiring a good engineer with a solid fundamental background and training on the job for the desired specialized skills? The Catch 22 is that companies are unwilling to invest a lot in a junior employee because they may just job hop to the next position for higher pay, so they look for a "qualified" person at higher pay (job hopper). It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Managers, HR compensation experts listen up, pay your engineers enough money that nobody else will want to hire them!! Problem solved.
The main problem with engineering in this country is that companies have outsourced everything, including design, to other countries where the labor is cheaper even though the quality stinks.
New engineers in the Semiconductor industry don't have hands on experience since all manufacturing sites are being moved off-shore
There should be full employed for every qualified engineer in the U.S. and then go outside its borders.
In today's information age, it is folly to believe that limiting Visas will help your career. Limiting visas will actually harm you and your country more. Everyone in India and China wants your job. Companies becoming large global giants. When global employers with US operations cant hire enough people in the US, and can hire 4 people in India for what you make in the US - well you're an engineer, you do the math. Thinking that you can save your job by limiting Visas is shortsighted and does not take into account the reality of the Global economy. Engineering is not like the medical or law profession. It does not have to be done locally. It is not like auto manufacturing that has large expense to ship products and move and set up factories. If we think we are the only country smart enough to design new cutting edge products, well that's kind of arrogant. Anyone remember the space race? We werent always the technological leader. There is nothing that says it will continue to be that way. If we are not careful, engineering will become like the textile business of the 70s and will leave the US entirely except for on site support. Then we could service other peoples products.
"The companies have no clue about using and retaining the talent they currently have. They are actively firing their current talent, and hiring directly from schools that are 75% and 50% foreigners for PHDs and MSs. We are ruining our work force and educating the world. These foreigners eventually return to their home country and take their skills and businesses with them. Typically future leaders are from the universities. That just says our leaders will be moving overseas. Our short sighted educators and corporations are ruining our country. Education is not about learning. It is about power, money, and prestiege. They don't make it easy to learn. They try to prevent students from learning by making it more difficult than necessary. They don't recognize the faculty that educate.
The number of young engineers has decreased dramatically over the last 20 years. Our company works closely with the local university to hire interns and develop engineers. However, that does not keep up with the growth rate of the company and many of the experienced engineers find themselves taking on more and more work. Unfortunately, we work in defense and it is difficult to hire non U.S citizens.
Engineering used to be a career in the league of Doctor and Lawyer. Today, Engineers are viewed as a commodity. I have advised several friends with children considering a career in engineering to think long and hard about it, and to consider other careers that can not be as readily outsourced which offer better compensation and work environments, such as pharmacy.
Not enough native-grown engineers anymore because math and science are either too hard or too nerdy for today's kids. We need to address this or most engineering jobs will be outsourced and the US will become a 3rd rate power.
There is no shortage of US engineers. That is a myth perpetuated by companies and the current US administration in an effort to allow shifting of jobs offshore. If there are fewer HS students choosing engineering for college then it is because they see the situation accurately and, despite what Gates and Zander say, the goal is to shift engineering jobs to lower cost (and lower quality) foreign sources. Engineering is being pushed to a commodity career, readily performed offshore (however with less quality). Last, the only engineering I would recommend for my children is engineering in the energy field. Energy is the place to be starting now.
Electronics engineering is a disaster in this country (the US)! Now, my experience is mainly in my field: embedded systems development, both hardware and software. The companies are only interested in the cheapest labor. They exploit the "in the trenches" engineer. EE has the lowest respect and earnings to education ratio of any other "profession". As I hold two Masters degrees, I think I am qualified to make that statement. No, we can't live in America on Indian wages! I have heard from colleagues that outsourcing isn't working so well in many cases. The quality has suffered greatly.
In regard to H1-B, I think the concern is that there may be an inadequate supply of US citizens with engineering degrees, but most engineering tasks can be performed highly skilled technicians or programmers with lesser degrees supervised by graduate engineers.
I did not want my children to pursue engineering careers because of the instability of careers at engineering firms. I have moved much more as an engineer than my parents did serving in the military.H1-B visas don't matter. Leadership and MBA programs are the problem.
An Engineering education is one of the best foundations one can have if he/she decides to persue a different career path, eg. Marketing or Sales...or even obtaining a graduate degree such as a MBA. It allows one to open more doors in the building of Life.
Short term business thinking has helped contribute to the cheapening and slow degradation of what was once a very respectable career choice in the U.S. It's a shame since this is happening just when we need more engineers to solve the latest generation of the world's problems.
I believe we need a 6 year education program in Engineering before entering the job market
Instead of increasing H1-B visas, encourage/reward students to study engineering in order to increase Engineering graduates.
Engineers are treated as commodities where managers seem to think they can insert any engineer in any position. If you are above average you are shoe-horned into projects that are behind schedule and over budget with no chance of promotion. And in the end, there's no job security. So an engineer end up moving to cities where there are more jobs or moving all over the country chasing jobs.
Engineering is not what it used to be. New skills are always needing to be learned.
In question #7, there was no option to say that H1-B visas have not affected me, but I do not believe they should be increased! I believe we need to make technology careers "hip" and encourage students to pursue math and science. We should also encourage U.S. companies to keep jobs HERE and not outsource them overseas. We should also impress upon the U.S. government that ITAR restricts American competitiveness-- we are limited in ability to sell technology abroad, and often encounter problems procuring foreign-made hardware or applications engineering support.
There are not enough colleges for the number of interested students. Females traditionally do not pursue engineering yet are 55% of undergraduates, we need to make engineering more entertaining to college students. H1-B is not of concern to me and I would have rather skipped this question.
I strongly feel that companies need to be out educating and encouraging more students in high school to consider engineering as a career. Most of them have no real ideas of what engineers do and how they benefit society. In addition the education system at the college level is our of sysc with what is needed by industry. The trend toward charging students more for an engineering degree will further compound the situation. Most engineers already spend 5 years to get their undergraduate degrees in engineering, so they are pay more for their eduation already. (Industry needs to take a positon against this trend) They also need to swap our couses like theorietical calculas with technical calculas and focus on practicale engineening skills and more labs with those hours. In addition early course work in the areas of study the student is interested in need to be made available in the first couple of years of study. Finally the mad rush to outsource critial design activities to low cost countries with limited to no IP protection is a formula for long term failure. Companies and govenments in those regions are hungry for that knowledge and will go to great lenghts to get it. In the long term the only ones that bennifit from this practice are the already overcompensated executives. If these executive were paid a more equitable compensation they could afford to keep more people employed in the US."
Electronic engineering has been a poor choice of career, and a poorer choice in Australia than in other countries including USA. Some other branches of engineering have worked out much better for their practioners and these represent reasonable career choices.
Messing about with other people's money seems to be the best way to go these days.
On engineering education: A BS from 25 years ago is as good as an MS today. Schools do not teach enough in undergrad fro a BS graduate to become a useful engineer in less than years.
