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Industry leaders share their insights about processor and software-processing architectures and the impact they have on system and software development. Relevant architectures include microprocessors, microcontrollers, digital signal processors (DSPs), multiprocessor architectures, processor fabrics, coprocessors, and accelerators, plus embedded cores in FPGAs, SOCs, and ASICs. Moderated by EDN Technical Editor Robert Cravotta.



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Monday, July 2, 2007

More on the cost of development boards

Jul 2 2007 8:21AM | Permalink |Comments (12) |


I will admit, I am new to the blog scene. So when, encouraged by EDN, I started off writing the first piece, I purposely chose a subject that I knew would stir up some controversy—hoping to get the "blog" rolling. The number of comments posted confirms that I succeeded, perhaps a bit beyond my expectations (smile). Let me tell you up front that I don't think I have the perfect answer to all your concerns and comments, but at the same time I want you to know that I had already heard most of them before (big smile). 

First of all, I am aware of the possibility to run "promotions". That is, from time to time to ship batches of boards for free to launch a new tool or a new product. In fact, Microchip does continuously run such promotions. Sometimes the tools are given away for free to seminar attendees, sometimes to participants of a particular contest, or to readers of a given magazine. Sometimes they take the form of heavy discounts for educators, consultants and students. But, although I agree with some of your comments—promotions do grab the potential users' attention and help win new adopters—they really fall under a different chapter: it is in their nature to be limited in scope and time.

My main concern in the previous blog was with mid/long-term sustainable tools, if you recall. More interesting, perhaps, was the opinion expressed in some of the comments (SSEA and Dave) that no designer should have to pay to evaluate a product. In fact, I agree strongly with this statement. As you might know, we do provide FREE samples of all our products at sample.microchip.com. Now, imagine how much fun it would be if car manufacturers where to follow our example! But more seriously, perhaps a smaller number of readers might be aware of "loaner" programs, where field application engineers actually lend tools to individual designers/companies to support the development of specific projects.

Although, in the first blog I deliberately focused on evaluation boards (hardware tools), some of the comments received referred to software tools and the cost of C compilers in particular. This could take us on a tangent, but I will quickly indulge—since it shows more a problem of "awareness" than of actual support. On our tools site, you will find the so-called "Student Versions" of all the company-owned compilers, and demonstration versions of all third-party compilers, supporting even the smallest PIC microcontrollers (including the PIC10F series in 6-pin packages). We went to extreme measures to make sure that the evaluation versions are really functional. In fact, you can write some pretty compelling applications with them, without missing much any of the advanced features reserved to the fully licensed versions.

[Editor's note, 7/16/2007: We inadvertently left off the following three paragraphs when publishing this blog post on 7/2/2007. Some of the user comments refer to the accidentally incomplete version. We apologize for the error.]

To prove it, let me point you to a recently published book on PIC24 programming (or I should say "flying"…). It comes with an attached CD-ROM containing, among other things, the MPLAB C30 compiler (student version) and source code for numerous applications of growing complexity—culminating with a media player based on the Explorer 16 demonstration board. Actually, this shameless plug (if you did follow the link, you might have noticed that I was the author of that book—wide open smile) gives me an idea: perhaps the price range of a typical engineering book could be a good reference for our tools limbo stick?

Finally I should address Vignesh, who suggested an old trick—shipping bare boards together with instructions for the user to mount them; and Sujit before him who had recommended spontaneous support within a community of users. Both solutions have their appeal, but they also seem to suggest a dichotomy in the target user base. Sort of like: have real tools for the professionals, and then let the rest have the crumbs. Mind you, I am not saying that there shouldn't be strong community support for tools and products—on the contrary. I just don't think it is fair for a leading manufacturer to drop the ball so to speak, and leave customers to their own devices while calling that "support".

Otherwise I am pretty much in tune with Mike2; you (the developer) better know how to split your cost among your customers, and how to get paid for your work in the first place! As the saying goes, "in business there are only two types of companies: those that make money and those that lose money." In the long term, you don't want to work with the latter.

Lucio Di Jasio, Microchip


Reader Comments



at 7/11/2007 1:48:33 PM, hmmm said:
Once again you miss the point, but this time on the compiler front. The last thing I want is some dumbed-down non-free 4K-limited compiler that I will get locked in to and eventually have to pay for. Stop supporting third parties and worry about your customers.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up on PICs. I loved the things. But I don't want to program in assembly anymore, and I don't want to pay for a compiler/IDE. Get a small contracted software team from gnu/gcc to produce an open toolchain that can be community-supported and I would honestly consider coming back. At the very least I would give it a try, which I assure you I'm not doing now.



at 7/11/2007 2:19:25 PM, Trent Kelly said:
A couple of Microchip products recently made it into one of my designs. It was great that I was able to get free samples. The bigger issue for me was the availability of samples in a PDIP package. Many other manufacturers don''''t make easy to test DIP packages available.



at 7/11/2007 3:07:04 PM, Gary said:
Free samples are rarely an inducement for me to try a part. First they usually come through the marketing department and often take weeks to get there. Then there is the inevitable phone call asking what project they are going into, how many I will need the next year, etc. Usually it is faster and less hassle to order them from DigiKey.



at 7/11/2007 7:30:38 PM, sathkoml said:
Microchip's present policy to deny free samples of PIC devices to non-corporate requests from experimenters both young and old is disappointing. Earlier we users with just yahoo, hotmail or gmail were encouraged to try out applications using PIC devices and publish in relevant journals. As a teacher, I introduced these devices to several batches of students, who eventually are potential buyers. In this regard MAXIM is to be congratulated, who still support the scheme of free samples.



at 7/12/2007 6:11:48 AM, Ian C. said:
So you're saying you dont' have to be a "student" to use student versions? Maybe you should rename them ...

We recently paid $300 for an IAR ARM demo kit - but it included UARTS, CAN, LCD, switches/LEDs, every I/O pin brought out to connectors, and the C compiler is complete; limited to 32K code but that should be enough for our current project.
HOWEVER: the $3K-$5K cost of the next compiler level is ludicrous, especially when there's annual support costs on top.

Now that high end chips are down near the price of low end parts, the high end compilers need to come down too!



at 7/13/2007 1:47:33 PM, too fast said:
Too fast on the keyboard, you should verify the facts first or you risk turning this blog in an instrument of mis-information ... The C30 compiler student version does NOT have ANY limit on code size, NO time limit or other tricky limitation, they are pretty honest about it, you loose only the higher optimization levels! (YES it is a gcc based compiler).



at 7/13/2007 2:00:06 PM, simple sample said:
I see some more mis-information regarding the free samples... if you order samples via sample.microchip.com, with a simple click of your mouse they will get shipped to you directly from the warehouse. NO marketing involvement. It is a totally free service so you don't expect FEDEX overnight, do you?



at 7/19/2007 8:09:57 AM, Gary said:
Simple Sample's comments about FEDEX lead me to belive my previous comments where misunderstood. They applied to electronic samples in general and not specifically to Microchip.

I once requested samples from a company that took 6 months to arrive. A week after they came I got a phone call from a sales rep. He was upset that I had decided to go with another manufacturer months earlier.

This is an extreme case, but for the most part I still go direct to a distributor. Spending a couple of bucks to save some time and hassle is usually worth it in my book.



at 1/9/2008 3:46:47 PM, compiler_cost said:
any commercial compiler vendor that believes his compiler is worth more than $500 is smokin some heavy stuff! unless of course they can get enough users to pay that...which means everyone is smokin some heavy stuff!!



at 1/9/2008 5:34:16 PM, Microcarl said:
Long Live The AVR!!!



at 1/10/2008 6:41:30 AM, Calvin said:
It is an interesting topic; however I don't think this kind of article should be chosen as one of "Top 10 most popular embedded processing links of 2007". espicially " I purposely chose a subject that I knew would stir up some controversy—hoping to get the "blog" rolling". That just wasted reader's time!




at 1/10/2008 7:00:50 AM, ANdrew said:
FREE SAMPLES MEAN SQUAT. Anyone who would spend a week designing and fabricating an system to use a couple of measly free samples might spend a couple of bucks on the first pieces anyway if the product is of value.

Personally, I would pay for the dev board to evaluate if the product satisfactory... unless at $50/hour the "perceived value" of a ready to go dev board with free, complete IDE and GCC compiler is too low.

$500 for a full compiler with good optimization and code compression is reasonable for someone who requires it. However, over $500 is dumb, and there should ALWAYS be a FREE AND FULLY FUNCTIONAL compiler available to the rest.

The only valid and halfway coherent motivation for tis article is the, i agree absolutey shameless, plug for this guys book.

I agree, a good engineering book's price is a good limbo stick for dev tools, and they usually go for around $100 by the way (electrical engineering anyway).

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