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Tuesday, July 22, 2008

Plug-in hybrid vehicles: Here’s what GM’s thinking

After the relative gushing of the Atlantic Monthly article about GM’s plug-in hybrid Volt program, the Wall Street Journal followed up almost immediately with an editorial titled, “What is GM thinking.” It’s not complementary about GM’s decision, to say the least. How can GM justify gambling as much as $1B investing in a car that has no proven market, and at best will appeal to a small affluent market?

At Plug-in 2008 being held in San Jose this week, Jonathan Lauckner, Vice President, Global Program Management, General Motors described the opinion piece as nonsense. I agree, it had a lot of inaccuracies, but hey, this is the WSJ [corrected] opinion page – it thrives on taking an old-fogey stance on just about everything. More interesting to me was Lauckner saying that GM is betting on the end of petroleum-based transportation and the electrification of the car.

Lauckner said GM is asking for government action in investing in battery technology: “The government must proactively support the development of advanced technology, specifically battery technology. China and Japan are pouring millions and millions into batteries.” In addition, he sees the government having to drive regulations for utilities providing the new electrical infrastructure.

GM announced a consortium of EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute) and 30 North American utilities to develop the electrical infrastructure necessary to support the electrification of the auto. The coalition will address ensuring safe and convenient vehicle charging, raising the public awareness and understanding of plug-in electric vehicles, and working with public policy leaders to enable a transition from petroleum to electricity as a fuel source.

There were no mentions of any nitty-gritty details, like those I posted on yesterday. Indeed, Steve Specker, CEO of EPRI, who also spoke, said that he saw a time frame of 10 years for the new smart grid, because that’s the time frame that the utilities operate in. He also said he worked at GE in the ‘70s when the smart grid was initially proposed and was then just around the corner. He didn’t say what prevented it back then. But it probably had something to do with those nitty-gritty details, as well as a lack of will both on the part of utilities, the US government, as well as consumers.

Related entries in: Power Sources/Controllers |

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at 7/22/2008 12:14:39 PM, Meredith Poor said:
Having a high-power electric component to automobiles has a number of follow-on effects. In some circumstances it creates a freedom to choose one's fuel, since the generator (even if it's carried in the car) can be swapped out. In particular, ICEs can be replaced with fuel cells. It can also turn a vehicle into a 'transformer', used in this sense as the toys that used to assume all kinds of shapes depending on how they were folded. Certain van-like configurations could go from long-low to short-tall. Cars (or particularly SUVs) could 'kneel' to give people pavement or curb level walk in. Such changes might be particularly appropriate as baby boomers move toward retirement, and need a vehicle that can shape itself to accomodate various infirmities.

at 7/22/2008 5:17:28 PM, theBike said:
The electrification of the auto basically reqires nothing. Trying to extract road taxes from electricity used for cars strikes me as a pretty silly idea - taxing gasoline for the same purpose never made any real sense , it only made political sense because it moved the taxing from the state to the corner gas station. There is no need for a "smart grid," just the regular old grid we've had for the past 100 years. And some charging outlets in shopping centers, etc. The appearance of electrically propelled cars will not be an avalanche and there's no need to get all hysterical about the need for addditional daytime capacity. The monumental bulk of charging will occur late at night, via rate inducements. The amount of electricity required to charge the private transportation fleet simply isn't that large. And ideas such as the brainless vehicle to grid concept will self destruct because of its nonsensical logic.

at 7/23/2008 2:26:39 PM, Ungreen said:
I'll buy an electric car when it can travel as far as a gasoline powered car, be refueled in the same amount of time and performs as well. A viable electric car meeting my requirement will not be available within the next 20 to 50 years. Charging systems for a viable electric car to recharge in 5, 10 minutes are not practical at this time. Most people will wait over night to refuel their vehicle.

at 7/23/2008 2:50:53 PM, Michael Miller said:
Ultimately, we are attempting to stop the flood of technical reversion based on 'scarce' energy supplies. If we really want to end dependence on oil, we will have to move to a less energy intensive lifestyle. Stop subsidizing the delivery services (not naming any, but you get the drift) with tax deductions for fuel costs and fuel taxes. RAISE THEM instead. Likewise, the 'necessary' travel for business meetings is not necessary. STOP subsidizing these in tax law. Return to a train / water based delivery system of goods. We really do not require 30 BILLION dollars worth of tax subsidies for trucking everything from fruits and vegetables to cheap plastic toys out to every podunk town. These are merely three of the issues. The list is nearly too long to elucidate. We painted ourselves into this with 'overnight' everything, and now the bill is coming due.

at 7/23/2008 3:01:43 PM, sceptic said:
I'll take the WJJ [sic] over the Atlantic Monthly as a reliable source of info and opinion any day.

at 7/23/2008 6:02:31 PM, RB said:
People who advocate immediate change to electric cars have simply not done the math. The current demand for charging every car in a single neighborhood overnight is staggering, and where is the power to come from, where are the generators?? Certainly our existing grid is completely inadequate! Get real people, this is a nice idea but the infrastructure needs to be put in place at the same time. Oh, and by the way... what is the fuel for the new generators, where does this additional power come from? Oil, Gas, solar, where do you get the gigawatts to charge a few million battery banks overnight?

at 7/23/2008 7:28:26 PM, baldguy said:
Remember when GM came out with the EV1? That was a great idea, but handicapped by a proprietary "ping-pong paddle" inductive recharging system. I guarantee the Volt will go down that same road. That type of "innovation" is precisely what has caused the atrophy of the American auto industry. Why is it that our auto industry executives are so highly recompensed, yet so utterly incompetent? It does not require massive infrastructure changes nor more govrenmental handouts to GM to bring these vehicles to market - just make them reasonably priced and reliable, with about 200 miles range. I'll guarantee the Japanese will if GM and Ford don't.It will simply be a tale of the past being prologue. Will they never learn?

at 7/23/2008 7:54:25 PM, Fred S. San Jose, Ca said:
If not us, then our Grandchildren will see the ''Flux Capacitor''. It will replace the power source of hybrids and plug-ins and whatever else comes after that, which themselves will soon be obsolete because replacement batteries for them just won''t be available or cost effective. This is similar to how CDs have replaced cassettes, 8-track, LPs before that. I picture 30-second drive-thru charging stations to recharge your car’s capacitor. R&D will shift away from battery development in the not too distant future.

at 7/24/2008 4:12:33 AM, night_tango said:
The power for these cars has to come from somewhere, and there is already resistance to new power transmission facilities and switchgear from folks who don''t want it in their backyard. This also makes us even more dependent on the electric grid than we are now. Not sure that''s the right direction to head as long as the grid is designed as it is. Probably the correct direction is an electric drive with an on-board generator (probably turbine-powered) that will operate from multiple fuel sources (gasoline, propane, diesel oil, etc.). A couple of folks are already recommending multi-fuel vehicles as a way to break absolute dependence on gasoline. This would also allow the vehicle to be electrically powered once a suitable battery plant is developed. Too bad that innovation in this area isn''t going to come from Detroit. Just another example of how we are losing our competitive edge to folks that aren''t as fat and lazy as we are.

at 7/24/2008 4:13:05 AM, night_tango said:
The power for these cars has to come from somewhere, and there is already resistance to new power transmission facilities and switchgear from folks who don''''t want it in their backyard. This also makes us even more dependent on the electric grid than we are now. Not sure that''''s the right direction to head as long as the grid is designed as it is. Probably the correct direction is an electric drive with an on-board generator (probably turbine-powered) that will operate from multiple fuel sources (gasoline, propane, diesel oil, etc.). A couple of folks are already recommending multi-fuel vehicles as a way to break absolute dependence on gasoline. This would also allow the vehicle to be electrically powered once a suitable battery plant is developed. Too bad that innovation in this area isn''''t going to come from Detroit. Just another example of how we are losing our competitive edge to folks that aren''''t as fat and lazy as we are.

at 7/24/2008 5:27:59 AM, YourMomma said:
I've got an idea! How about a horse and buggy! No pollution, free fertilizer for your plants and hay is still fairly cheap! Heck, they'll even mow your lawn for you! When you do decide to put them down you've got plenty of steak for you and the dogs!

at 7/24/2008 11:14:00 AM, My2cents said:
Plug-in Hybrids are dual fuel vehicles. You put gas in them and drive away. They are not all electric vehicles. Charging overnight is an added bonus. Biggest drawback is the weight and expense of the batteries which reduce range and responsiveness. Until the costs come down they will not be successful. Look at the Prius it is a reasonable price. If auto makers keep the price differential between hybrid/plugin etc at a reasonable level they'll sell. That is what killed the ev1 it was a toy for the rich.

at 7/25/2008 1:41:20 PM, Physics Guy said:
Fusion energy will be here in 15 years or less (notice I didn't say fission, nuclear, or even "nuke-you-ler"). In the mean time, how about these new, very thin, high-energy solar panels coupled with the new generation of batteries right around the corner? Remember, we don't have to replace every petroleum-fueled vehicle---just half of them would be a great benefit. Range and charging infrastructure will grow as the transition progresses. I'm guessing too many lobbies and patent buy outs will slow or stop this progress as it has so far.

at 8/5/2008 2:41:06 PM, Randy Juras said:
WSJ seems to be against anything that is not oil based. They find more reasons to not do, or even try, anything. In the mean time, the rest of the world seems to be trying hard to get off of fossil fuels. Which makes a lot of sense. I wish our own Nation would stop spending time and money not doing anything, and start spending time and money building something! As I recall, we went to the Moon in less than a decade.

at 8/5/2008 6:05:19 PM, solarjdp said:
Check out afstrinity.com They have worked with the DOE and studies show that there is enough surplus electricity during evening hours (even though generation is cut back) to power 84% of all american's plug-in hybrid vehicles every night. NO PROBLEM. Gas is still used but since the studies also show that 72% of all american's drive less than 40 miles rd. trip each day, the effective mpg yield on a Saturn Vue is 15ompg - tested!!! Small Corolla style vehicle 250 mpg tested!!! They use the ultra caps and batteries with their own controller. The volt is using similar technology to achieve 100mpg (way smaller than afstrinity) but still a step in the right direction. Chico, CA

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