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Wednesday, October 8, 2008

Strange bedfellows: The $700B bailout and the Chevy Volt

I haven’t seen much mention in the mainstream press of plug-in hybrid tax credit that was tucked away in last week’s $700B bailout package for which the direct beneficiary was the US financial industry. The Plug-in hybrid tax credit was one of a couple of benefits that directly benefited the US auto industry: The other was $25B in low-interest government loans to US car manufacturers.

Chevy Volt The plug-in hybrid tax credit starts at a baseline $2500 tax credit and goes up an additional $417 per kWH for batteries greater than 4 kWH. Toyota and Honda are both talking about introducing plug-in hybrids, but the best-known plug-in so far will be Chevy’s Volt, currently slated for 2010. The credit for the Volt will work out to about $7500 per car. GM has yet to announce a firm price for the Volt, but $40,000 is frequently floated as a likely price.

Related entries in: Automotive | Battery Power | Business and Marketing | Power Sources/Controllers |

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at 10/8/2008 2:50:23 PM, Kirt Blattenberger said:
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll be sure to let others know about it.

at 10/8/2008 10:54:20 PM, Meredith Poor said:
For some reason I keep thinking I'm in postwar Britian where the Labor party has just nationalized everything. Seems like the WTO ought to come down on this like a ton of bricks. We aren't supposed to be subsidizing "our own" businesses anymore. ~~~ So I get a tax credit that cuts the price of the car from $40,000 to $32,500. The Subaru I'm driving I bought new for $21,000. I spend $750 a year in gas, or $7500 over ten years. Ol' Rako is laughing, I can hear him all the way to Texas. ~~~ I drove by a gas station today that was selling regular at $2.99. Wal-Mart is selling it for $3.04. Guzzle, guzzle... slurp.

at 10/8/2008 11:05:38 PM, Meredith Poor said:
I'm going to go out on a limb with a fairly bizarre prediction: this whole thing will blow over by summer 2009. Unemployment will be back under 5% as of June 2009. This is based on two fundamental ideas: the first, that a lot of good news is being crowded out by the financial 'catastrophe'. Solar power is getting cheaper, wind turbines are being planted like daisies, Li-Ion battery production is ramping up to truly enormous volumes, and cellulosic ethanol is moving into commercial operation. None of this is 'news' right now. At least, no one wants to read it. ~~~ Second, the big global financial players are toast, but the local banks, loaning money to people they know, and the other local sharks (car dealers, etc.) are still providing credit to people in their backyards. These people are going to be doing very nicely, thank you. ~~~ WSJ makes a note that the buildings that are literally on Wall street are now condos, shops, and gyms. Actual trading houses and investment banks are in larger headquarters in New Jersey. This is 'the end of Wall Street'. Now, this part of Manhattan might eventually be under water... literally. So the timing is fortuitious.

at 10/9/2008 5:03:23 AM, Peter said:
It doesn''t add up...A normal 20 US Gallon tank has 2420 M-Joules of energy. Thats equivalent to 672 KiloWatt Hours of charging. That seems to be 44 hours of charging at 15 amps supply. Even at twice the efficiency of a gasoline engine, thats 22 hours. Apart from the utilities cost, no one has the time to charge up or the finance to provide this supply on a national scale.

at 10/9/2008 9:05:59 AM, Jonathan Williams said:
Agreed. This is a niche market and it will stay that way for a long time. It may make cents for a limited number of people.

at 10/9/2008 10:53:16 AM, Fred said:
Peter (above) makes some good points. Some more points to consider: 1. This is at least a start for the technology, i.e., version 1.0. 2. Sales? Tree huggers and hollywood will love it. It "makes a statement." Our culture is now more about ''image'' than ''reality.'' 3. Our country is moving away from capitalism and toward socialism. (And Obama would accelerate this trend.) Food for thought...

at 10/12/2008 7:05:20 PM, Roger said:
Well, yes, it _does_ add up. GM has said that a Volt will run up to 40 miles on a charge. Let''s assume for ease of math that it gets the equivalent of 20 miles per gallon, that''s 242 MegaJoules of energy that needs to be replenished -- instead of 44 hours it''s 4.4 hours to recharge @ 15A. We won''t go into losses that occur during charging, this is all broad strokes. I'm assuming the rest of your math is correct.

at 10/14/2008 1:13:40 PM, Rennysoncemann said:
Peter, you must drive a lot. Your post assumes you have to fill your (empty) tank every day. Not the case for most of us. -R

at 10/14/2008 2:27:32 PM, Marc said:
You have to take care comparing gasoline energy to battery energy, because much more of gasoline's potential energy is lost as waste heat when it is converted to mechanical energy (electric motors are more efficient than gas engines). The Volt has a 16kWh battery pack: that's 57.6MJ, not 242. A car driven 40 miles per day could recharge at 120V/15A in about 10 hours, including losses. So a commuter living within 20 miles of work could use the car as a full-electric vehicle. And it still has a gas engine for long trips. It may not be for everyone, but it is far from a pure "niche" vehicle.

at 10/14/2008 2:58:19 PM, Jonathan Williams said:
40 miles a day with air-conditioning? It'll be a niche vehicle. Mark my words.

at 10/14/2008 4:06:25 PM, Mike said:
Peter assumed electric motors are twice as efficient as gasoline ones are. The ratio is a great deal higher than that from what I've read.

at 10/15/2008 1:59:38 AM, Per J. Moller said:
Yes - efficiency of electric system is four times better than petrol system. I have used electric car for more than 10 years in the area of Copenhagen - driving every day to work - dayli around 30 miles. With a 12kWh battery I can drive two days - so it´s a consumption of around 200 Wh/mile. OK this is a compact car with 4 seats weighing 1000kg. Charging is mostly done at home 230V/13A, but we have also special parking for EV´s only where we can charge and for free in the center of Copenhagen.

at 10/17/2008 9:14:34 AM, Robert said:
My view after reviewing a number of articles, blogs, and seeing a few home-made electrics is build an electric yourself. It will take you about 2,000 us dollars for a vehicle that has 4 seats, drives 70+ mph, goes an average of at least 120 miles, and includes AC and all the rest of the amenities that a gas vehicle would have. Per J. Moller (he or she?) has a vehicle that could use an upgrade to his batteries and to his motor. If he did so at the full $2,000 cost, he would pay for it easily over the next 5 years. His driving distance would greatly increase as would his ability to get there faster. The information about efficiency and charge times that commentors have left is slightly off. Production vehicles (at least 5 more than we see today) in 2010 will offer vehicles that fully charge in 4 to 6 hours. Their ranges will vary on the quantity of LI Ion power that is offered - always upgradable. These vehicles will be built to make a profit, not a point. Hence, you can build your own now or hope aimlessly for a large corporation to build your dream electric in a few years. With a little reasearch and good sense gleaned from asking questions from those who''ve done it themselves already many of us can build our own and be very happy with the results. The Volt is just one of many that have appeared all over the news. Even at $30,000, a 4-seater Volt would offer them a heavy profit margin.

at 10/21/2008 2:53:55 PM, EV''er in ABQ said:
Robert said: > build an electric yourself. It will take you about 2,000 us dollars > for a vehicle that has 4 seats, drives 70+ mph, goes an average of at > least 120 miles, and includes AC and all the rest of the amenities that > a gas vehicle would have. Sounds pretty optimistic to me, considering any one of the components you need (motor, controller, batteries, donor vehicle, ancillary systems) will cost more than $2K each. Show me your bill of materials.

at 10/22/2008 1:03:48 PM, Robert said:
Sorry, mistype from a copy/paste - 20,000 us dollars. I have seen a single DIY battery pack that would take about 15,000 dollars to build - it would probably be overkill since it was meant for an attempt at a speed record - see NEDRA.com. There are newer technologies appearing soon that hopefully will cut battery costs quite a bit. Batteries are the heaviest cost.

at 11/14/2008 11:21:47 AM, Dave said:
I got a chance to drive the Chevrolet "Impact" (what a great name for a car!) aka the EV-1. It was a terribly expensive hand built lead sled with skinny high pressure tires. It cornered like a frisbee on blacktop and I certainly wouldn't want to drive it in the rain or snow. The reason they went to the shredder was that GM didn't want the liability associated with it's squirelly handling.

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