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Thursday, August 14, 2008

Massive solar project garners protests from solar energy industry

Aug 14 2008 11:24AM | Permalink |Email this|Comments (47) |

Southern California Edison came up with an economical and scalable plan to encourage solar energy use and also delay building conventional energy generating plants in Southern California: Install solar panels on the acres of industrial rooftops in LA and use these as supplemental energy sources during daytime peak energy demand. Here are the specs: The project that will place 250 megawatts of advanced photovoltaic generating technology on 65 million square feet of roofs of Southern California commercial buildings – enough power to serve approximately 162,000 homes. It will be the nation’s largest solar cell installation.

What’s not to like with this plan? It doesn’t require environmental impact reports or installation of a new power transmission infrastructure, and with some retrofitting and strengthening, can be done over existing structures.

Not so fast, say a group of solar companies, industry trade groups and others who argue it would give Edison too much of a monopoly on California's solar market.

“Arno Harris, CEO of Recurrent Energy, applauds SCE for recognizing that added incentives are needed to tap the vast solar potential of rooftop locations for such a complex.

But he said it would be "bad policy to put that resource in the hands of one utility under a monopoly structure."

"Recurrent Energy believes ratepayers, property owners, California residents, the solar industry and its employees are best served by an open, competitive marketplace for the development of distributed solar-generating projects," Harris said.

Similar concerns were collectively voiced by the Solar Alliance, California Solar Energy Industries Association and The Vote Solar Initiative.”

Here’s a quote from SCE’s original announcement of the project: “SCE’s renewable energy project was prompted by recent advances in solar technology that reduce the cost of installed photovoltaic generation. When combined with the size of SCE’s investment, the resulting costs per unit are projected to be half that of common photovoltaic installations in California. [italics added]”

So Edison, buying in huge quantities, is able to get great prices on the newest in solar panel technology, which no small installer of solar systems can compete with. This is unfortunate for the relatively small companies, but let’s face it, if SCE wasn’t behind a project of this size it wouldn’t get done near as fast, nor most likely in a scalable, trackable manner. Let’s drop the headwind and let Edison get on with it.

Related entries in: Power Sources/Controllers | Solar/Photovoltaics |

Reader Comments

at 8/14/2008 12:02:35 PM, Meredith Poor said:
Home Power magazine had a big write up a few months ago about what the electrician unions were doing with solar installation in Southern California. Essentially they wouldn't sign off on anything that they didn't install. So the compeitive marketplace doesn't exist in that part of the country anyway. Utilities should be the ones driving solar on big-city rooftops. Small operators should operate in highly specialized markets, where they can create value-added for special users or uses. A large volume buy will distrible costs for PVs, distribution, and installer training over a bigger base, and create a degree of market acceptance not obvious at present. Imagine how Radio Shack and Apple were feeling when IBM announced the PC. Did it run them out of business, or create a user community they could carve niches out of?

at 8/14/2008 1:46:31 PM, alternety said:
If there could be a funding source found, perhaps a new non-profit Public Utility District for the state to develop alternate power sources. The control of technology/resources by trade groups is at least as disturbing as being controlled by big power.

at 8/14/2008 1:51:45 PM, Ted Crum said:
Lets get solar mainstreamed before local governments create a protected class of "Green Collar" workers, led by a bureaucracy that wants to take a piece out of every project. A job is a job no matter what collar you wear.

at 8/14/2008 1:51:48 PM, brains said:
they can do it for 1/2 the cost and that is a problam? what a bunch of dumb asses that want to stop a good project. The only real problem I see is that every roof top will not have solar cells. It would be good if the companies could own the systme on there own roofs. And sell any extra power and make all of the money from the sale of the power. Edison could build the units then sell them off and then build more. Since they can put them up at 1/2 the cost they could easly make 40% on each sale. that sounds like good money to me. And the bulyer would still get a 10% discount a good deal for them We need less people stoping projects like this and more people starting them. We dont need another Ted Kenndy that stoped a huge wind power project. Because it would wreck his view. People if you want power you need to do something

at 8/14/2008 1:54:44 PM, Andrew said:
Too little bears want to be share a pie equally, and to be fair, they went to the third party Fox to equally split the pie. Fox slit it, "sorry, this piece is just a little bit too large" So she took a big bite on the larger piece to just make it too small. She then took another bite on the now larger piece, and so on, until she was full, and the little bears were left with two tiny pieces of equal size.

at 8/14/2008 1:58:02 PM, Chris PE said:
In my opinion , it should be a federal thing NOT controlled by Edison. None of us has any choice if we want to sell energy back to Edison.They have to install an interface and some of my friends in Florida just about bereak even with roofs full of solar panels and A/C plus pool pumps running.There are some problems with priceing and I think that it should be solved.As far as starting from industrial , not residential has a bit of greed factor(very popular tosay) built into it.I know that prices of panels are through the roof now , which they should not be, because warehouses are full of them.I pulled my old panels off before changing prices,then I found out that it would cost me 4X the money to replace 10 years old panels with the new ones.We have a tendency to support monopolies.The best examples are Edison , AT&T and of course the greediest ever COMCAST.Did our law changed in last 20 years? I remember that MaBell was like 100 times smaller than AT&T and they were broken up into pieces. Unfortunately I agree with small industries and installers.THERE SHOULD BE NO MONOPOLY on ANY new energy , because it will get is nowhere and "small people" will never reap any benefits from it.Just my opinion.Great article Margery.Thank you!

at 8/14/2008 2:01:17 PM, You can't do that! What were you thinkin said:
Its all about the flipin money! Who is going to make the most buck. When are we going to start thinking about the people in our country and how to make it a better place to live. The US is already bottoming out with the lack of industry to provide jobs and pruducts. We led the industrial age now look at us. :( It is a crying shame and the blame is each and everyone of us......

at 8/14/2008 2:01:29 PM, Bob in Silicon Valley said:
Solar on industrial roof tops is a no brainer. Not only do you get more peak power exactly when its needed, but you also keep all that energy away from the roofs, hence reducing cooling costs on the buildings without power. Those protesting it are simply sore losers - maybe they can talk to SCE about getting some of the installation business. SCE is to be applauded for showing a good example of how it can be done. We don't need more sour grapes - we do need more low cost innovation at a large scale.

at 8/14/2008 2:08:04 PM, Preston Ozmar said:
I think that it is important that some companies, organizations, etc get started on large solar installations right away. I don't think that we should be so concerned about who does it, just that it gets done. Thank you.

at 8/14/2008 2:10:32 PM, Chris PE said:
What worries me is that IT IS all about buck and "investors" , "speculators" "shareholders" and other greedy people will try to milk solar energy , especially when industry invests in it. No private citizens will be able to afford them. We will be sold cheap "printed" solar cells that dye after 5 years and are VERY sensitive to weather.I love in Michigan and I tested some of the cheap ones.After few winters they were trash."You can's do that" is right. It's a shame how we do things today...

at 8/14/2008 2:10:54 PM, Carl said:
As Bob above pointed out, it's a no brainer. We need the additional power and all that is happening is a lot of blah blah and nothing happens. Every Watt we generate here is less income for the people that we buy oil from and hate us. Of course if we could expell and the undocumented users from the country that would help as well.

at 8/14/2008 2:11:51 PM, Rob said:
"Recurrent Energy believes ratepayers, property owners, California residents, the solar industry and its employees are best served by an open, competitive marketplace for the development of distributed solar-generating projects," Harris (Recurrent''s CEO) said. So do I!!! Take away the subsidies and government intervention. This guy''s just pissed off because the government is favoring some OTHER project rather than his own. We can expect to see lots more of this in the future as renewable energy proponents fight at the trough of government largess. Boone Pickens (with Nancy Pelosi) has already taken his place in the pigpen.

at 8/14/2008 2:30:51 PM, Bob F said:
Carl from above is 100% correct. In my book if Edison is not blocking other people from providing solar energy solutions, they should be able to do whatever they want. If Edison calculates their ROI to be positive in the right number of years, they should be doing anything they can to reduce costs, and if the US becomes even 1 Watt less dependent on non-renewable energy,it will be worth it.

at 8/14/2008 2:33:24 PM, Leroy said:
I lived in California for 35 years and I have wondered for at least 15 or 20 why solar was not part of the building code and required on all new homes. The additional cost for a new home would be relatively low and having electricity generated from the Sun is way better than Coal, Oil, or Natural Gas. Also having the electricity being generated in a distributed model may turn out to be better infrastructure wise than at large remote generating facilities. Who wants a nuclear power plant moving in next door? I say it is time to move the needle on solar power and Go Go SCE. Lead the way for the country. It is time for change.

at 8/14/2008 2:57:48 PM, Mr Ball said:
I agree with Bob and Carl. This is a no brainer. The industry will never get kick started until someone makes money from it. If it is the utility that starts it up, so be it.

at 8/14/2008 3:10:33 PM, keystone1 said:
There's no such thing as a "competitive marketplace." Once it becomes so called "competitive" and unregulated the price for electrical energy goes through the roof. Go for it SCE!

at 8/14/2008 3:25:15 PM, John said:
250 megawatts... a drop in the bucket... Do what ever to increase the scale of solar production... The next gigawatt will be much cheaper! and the need for power will still be far from being met.....Just don''t lock out the other players and everything will work out.

at 8/14/2008 3:49:14 PM, Bob F said:
I think that I would rather call the power company when my home solar unit was not working properly, than trying to find some guy that probably went out of business 5 years ago. I am also sure that from the standpoint of being able to sell my home, that telling the next perspective owner, that the solar is service by the power company would be appealing. At least there are enough people wathcing them to keep them for the most part honest. Commercial today, and hopefully Residential tomorrow.

at 8/14/2008 3:50:11 PM, Len said:
If SCE builds a power plant or puts in solar cells to generate power it is the same concept. They are creating an infrastructure to generate power. The cells are renewable and distributed. That's great. Hopefully less of a carbon footprint. Maybe they would allow home owners to tag along on the purchase and buy some at a low price too. Then they could hire the installers to install them and everyone would be happy. :)

at 8/14/2008 4:29:25 PM, Pro Solar said:
Utilities have been generating power as monopolies for a long time. Why is this any different? Remember the Enron debacle? Thanks to deregulation!! SCE even sold power plants during the deregulation. If we are to move forward, we need novel power sources such as solar. It is a sure bet that fossil fuel plants will not be approved in our lifetimes!! One thing that SCE should be compeled to do is to purchase all power produced by household solar installations. Currently, they are only offsetting homeowner electric bills up to the amount of power used in a year. I''m sure they are getting free power from homeowners who are trying to cover their electric bill (plus a little margin). They are also missing out on additional solar capacity from homeowners who don''t want to overproduce. This would be a win for all, including SCE because they would get a new source of power without investing (the homeowner would).

at 8/14/2008 4:35:10 PM, ML in KS said:
Take a look at Germany''s law and how it has changed their solar infrastucture. The "Feed-in Legislation" in Germany permits customers to receive preferential tariffs for solar generated electricity depending on the nature and size of the installation.

at 8/14/2008 5:43:46 PM, tw said:
We had better get more things going like SCE is doing and soon so that we can provide enough juice for all the electric cars that are just around the corner!

at 8/14/2008 8:22:38 PM, Azmat said:
the utilities have the incentive, they have the finances, let them do it -- without any new tax incentives ... let them bundle the fossil and solar power, and charge what they get regulatory approval for. they reap the benefits in the form of carbon trading credits.

at 8/15/2008 8:24:32 AM, John in Tex said:
If we look historically at the computer industry - it was large business that first bought into computers and look at the price and performance of a PC today. This project should be applauded by the solar energy industry. Large volume of this size does lead to competition in the long run. Edison is not the only utility in the nation and a successful performance of large installation will lead the way for other utilities and suppliers to consider solar. This is the only real way that cost will come down. Investors are needed to fuel the industry and these type of projects are highly visible.

at 8/15/2008 8:32:10 AM, sam said:
Yet another example of good people doing hard work to make everyones life easier and the "FREE LOAFERS" wanting to get FREE MONEY without doing work. The State should support SCE and ignore Harris and other FREE LOAFERS that want the FREE RIDE at the expense of the general public and SCE. Sam

at 8/16/2008 12:25:29 PM, Meredith Poor said:
US power production capcity is somewhere around 800 Gigawatts, or 1 terawatt to round out to a nice number. Dividing 900 gigawatts by 30 years is 30 gigawatts, so the annual production of power generation facilities needs to be in this range just for us to replace obsolete capital equipment. So far there are two or three PV cell manufacturing companies that have 1GW per year production capacity. Most of the companies that have been around in the business for awhile are announcing on their websites that they're moving from 10s of megawatt production to 100s of megawatt production. In short, still one order of magnitude below replacement. However, this is only one order of magnitude. The PV industry only has to expand 10 to 1 to be capable of replacing non-renewable energy supplies completely. Would anyone be surprised that the competive situation is going to get nasty... if it isn't already?

at 8/17/2008 10:52:57 AM, UNBELIVEABLE said:
what this bunch of morons are complaining about? What''s behind the scenes? Do we really want to get rid of fossil fuels dependence, or are we going to let a bunch of morons (or what could be worst, guys with hidden agendas and small interest groups) stop us from creating a clean world. We have been burning millions of barrels of oil, and tons of coal into the atmosphere, and there is people that still thinking that it has NO CONSECUENCES... AT ALL. So when somebody starts doing something positive, their contribution is whining and complaining and worrying about ghosts in their minds, or their bank accounts. Stop whining and start doing MORONS, stop sitting on your hands and DOUBLE what this guys are doing, install your OWN 500 MW of solar generated power, so SCE doesn''t become a monopoly.;

at 8/18/2008 1:01:47 AM, FEH said:
Every time someone has a great idea to do something in green power generation at a big scale, (viable project to turn the cost per m2 solar panel down and to profit to the small installations too) you will find some people who push the break.

at 8/19/2008 1:32:44 PM, Chris PE said:
I would just say : DO SOMETHING and don''t impose too much regulations on it , so I can install my solar panels (and I am ready when they finish a metal roof,which has mounts for them) and use them.My fist panels are almost dead and I had a good 10 years use out of them.With new good technology I hope to get 20 years of the new ones.As far as big scale I really don''t mind anything , as long as nobody sends me a union worker to my house and tells me that they have to do MY installation.Just like all the other monopolies, I will tell them: all outside a house is yours , all inside mine.I have not sold energy to a grid, but in a new system I will , to offset a cost of energy.Let''s just get on with all ne solar energy and quiet all "special interest" and "whiners".Solar energy is NOT an option , it is a NEED!!!

at 8/19/2008 1:57:19 PM, Gary Hoffsommer said:
I have been around the solar/wind game for almost 40 years. About 10 years ago I gave up trying to make my voice heard by my local electric utility. They graciously paid me 1.7 cents per kilowatt which I sold to them and would charge 8 cents to me if I needed to buy back any power. I doesn''''t take a rocket scientist long to decide who is getting the best deal! I still have 4 large wind towers as a monument to this effort in my field. After changing over to solar and investing many thousands in this effort, I again decided there was something wrong with this idea. It takes more energy to make the solar panels than they will capture from the sun in 20 years. Until we can find a really cheap and energy efficient way of manufacturing watts and kilowatts of solar panels, I think we are just kidding ourselves!

at 8/19/2008 2:19:15 PM, Chris PE said:
Gary made many important points.I had small scale installation .Only 450 W solar on my roof and they did pay for themselves, especially in summer running my pool pump for free.When I bought them "greed factor" in our great US was about 10x lower than it is now.When every dollar merchandise is sold for 10 dollars and 5 people make money in process , you naturally slow down a progress, while making a lot of people very rich.Sign of our "new brave world".

at 8/19/2008 2:40:08 PM, Mark Luksich said:
The long term solution is rather simple, all new construction homes / offices/ and commercial buildings must have an overall R-50 rating to receive a building permit. These buildings must include solar or wind where these solutions could provide a percentage of the buildings energy needs. Energy demand stagnates or declines as old inefficient buildings are replaced. Solar and Wind technology will continue to improve and the increase use creates more profit fostering more innovation and use.

at 8/19/2008 3:27:17 PM, fred mcgalliard said:
Unless Gary has some info I do not, I think the solar cell pay back ranges from as little as half a year to around 3 years. Most of the energy of manufacture is, I think, going into the support structure now, and would not be lowered by any effort to improve the solar cells themselves. I suggest a GO FOR IT. But with some premium for improving the installed energy cost per return on the way. With a really large project like this it pays to make even small step wise improvements

at 8/19/2008 3:50:44 PM, DaveF said:
While I'm not a big fan of the large utility companies, I am a large fan of doing what we can to become more energy independent. Part of the reason it is un-economical for individuals to put solar on their home roofs is that the cost of solar panels is still realitivly high because of low volume production. Anything that adds to the demand side of the equation will ultimatly benefit everyone. Let SCE work with the large industries and increase the demand for solar panels that will help us small guys.

at 8/19/2008 4:48:06 PM, Jeff said:
Not sure what some of these posters are reading - the government isn''t mentioned in the post here, except the SCE is a regulated monopoly. Nancy Pelosi, T. Boone Pickens, Ted Kennedy don''t have anything to do with this. These are CEOs complaining about a lack of an open marketplace because of the buying power of a much bigger entity. Complaints about the LACK of a free market hardly sounds like a liberal issue! I''d bet big money that the people complaining are Republican business people that are afraid of being cut out of a market. But for what its worth, we need to do whatever we can to encourage this kind of solar project in the US. If SCE can do it, with or without subsidies, let ''em do it. As the volume increases on solar, the prices will come down, and we can''t have too much solar.

at 8/19/2008 5:53:16 PM, Cornplace said:
Using funds from forced public utility California dictated by Edison S David Freeman, shishish, it financed Enron. Why not create another Enron? Another Enron should get green going, right? A solar Enron on every roof - great guns. Why not? BTW: Anyone got any solar units for sale? Call us. We need them. Old. New. We want solar. Respond at cornstoves@gmail.com or search for tennesseecornstoves tennesseecornplace. No solar is available at any price except in Calif and Fla.

at 8/20/2008 7:02:44 AM, Chris PE said:
I have a comment to Gary H. Manufacturing solar cells is not more expensive than energy they would give over 20 yesrs.It would be an obvious nonsence.Lets take average 75W solar panel working for 10hrs a day where we have 200 sunny days for 20 years 75x10x200x20=3000000Whrs=3MWh There can be a whole bunch - like 500 of those manudactured with that amount of energy.Do you know a manufacturing process of solar panels? There is a lot of information on Internet.Some of the new ones(printed) cost below $1/W to manufacture.Margery had an article about those.It is a GREED that makes them expensive, not cost.If we lived in 1950ies a whole country would be covered with them.People were sensible,kind and smart then and greed factor , like I mentioned was 10x lower if not more.Best Regards,Chris

at 8/20/2008 7:24:38 AM, JAZ in NM said:
It’s obvious people are for solar, but the question is who is getting to eat the pie. If we look to a root cause, then perhaps Wal-Mart, Target, Walgreens, Microsoft, (you get the picture) should lumped in as well, since this is a trend where the “small operators” have been squeezed out. The good thing is that renewable energy is being considered. If the government takes hold of it will balloon in budget like Welfare, Social Security and the like, and inefficiency will abound. Perhaps the idea of companies owning the systems, power companies installing them and maintaining them. Negotiate a contract from the installation point like that done for cell phones- penalties for early withdrawal, otherwise a certain deal locked in for a particular time. This gives flexibility, but also allows for all kinds of independent small maintenance and installation groups to get involved. On the flip side, those interested in gaming the system will find ways to do so, ultimately driving up the price for this energy to the consumer. There is no easy answer, just another puzzle to try and work out. It is a whole system we are up against, not just one California power company per se. If small operators are to be included, we need to change the system - an answer I do not have, but perhaps others do. I reminisce for the day when a handshake was all that was needed, and now the solution is a room full of lawyers drawing up contracts.

at 8/20/2008 2:18:09 PM, LKelley@goruby.com said:
I live in Michigan, not California, but I am still very interested in what CA companies do, because other States and companies eventually copy CA. Solar energy prices via Solar cells (photovoltaic) will come down mainly because REALLY big money thinks it will. Some very large companies are building extremely expensive factories to make poly-Silicon which is the basic raw material for silicon solar cells. Their poly-Si capacity is doubling in the next year or so. I own a company that makes very highly advanced crystals such as Ruby, Sapphire, NdYAG, Cubic Zirconia and others. (www.shelbygemfactory.com) Take a look at the factory pictures there, and you may get a good idea of how expensive my business is to operate. I use a LOT of electricity. Since I know something about crystal growth, I came up with a new way to make Silicon Solar Cells. I use about 1/30 the silicon and about 1/15th the electricity and about 1/10th the labor compared with any other company making Silicon Solar Cells. My cost for assembling them into arrays or packaging them or shipping them isn''t any less, but the silicon use is very much smaller. My process is the only new process for making Silicon Solar cells to be developed in the last 30 years. You might not believe it, but I am having a horrible time raising any serious money to manufacture large quantities of these in the USA. I can hardly find anyone even slightly interested. I can find all kinds of people from other countries that are interested. What the hell is wrong in this country? Are we all so damn stupid that we can''t recognize a good deal when we trip over it? I really want to cut my own electricity costs, and I do not care for windmills. At least the sun comes up every single day without fail. The wind doesn''t blow consistently enough for my operation.

at 8/20/2008 2:24:05 PM, Joe K said:
"250 megawatts of advanced photovoltaic generating technology ... enough power to serve approximately 162,000 homes." Am I missing something? 250 MW/162000 homes = 1543 W/home, enough for a toaster or microwave oven, but not both. Far less than it takes to run a whole-house air conditioner.

at 8/20/2008 2:27:00 PM, Dave said:
To expand on what John in Tex said, this is similar to what happened inthe computer industry. We started out with large businesses pushing it from the garage shops into mass production and the price came down. The small guys ought to look at this from a longer life-cycle. The price will come down when the market is larger. Better manufacturers, more competition. No one complains when Wal-Mart sells the flat screen $400 cheaper than Radio Shack. Once solar suppliers feel they have a chance to sell a larger number of units the price will come down and we will all have them on our roof, just like the cell phone in our pocket, and the computers in our homes. Keep the government out of this except to provide incentives to us little guys to install them on our homes.

at 8/21/2008 6:54:30 AM, Chris PE said:
LKelley, YES we are stupid and very much against progress.I live in Michigan also and while working in an automotive industry I keep on seeing an EXTREME opposition to ANYTHING that is modern, like electric car, because it COST MONEY to develop. I wish that it would be different , but cannot believe that it ever will.I believe your story , because I see dumb conservatism in our lives and politics.It would be awesome to take a tour of your company. Keep up good work - gems will always sell! Best Regards, Chris

at 8/30/2008 1:05:00 AM, Kevin in AZ said:
Joe K said: "250 megawatts of advanced photovoltaic generating technology ... enough power to serve approximately 162,000 homes." Am I missing something? 250 MW/162000 homes = 1543 W/home" 250 MW is continuous average power output. In more familiar units of kilowatt hours: 250 MW * 24 hr/day / 162,000 homes = 37 kW*hr / day / home which is much more power than my house uses.

at 8/31/2008 9:44:12 AM, Russ said:
There is a funding concept for renewable energy that would allow ordinary comsumers to invest in large-scale renewable projects, possibly ones like the PG&E project as well as those in the desert. The concept is called the PRE-Plan and can be seen at ProfitableRenewableEnergy.com.Right now its just a concept but if enough utility customers asked PG&E and the government to look into it, who knows. The plan does away with govt subsidies and saves utility customers that invest thousands of dollars and helps to stabilise rates for others.

at 9/30/2008 2:42:31 PM, R said:
It says at half the cost of previos PV units. How does that price compare to other energy sources. Is this the time to concider installing or continuing research.

at 12/9/2008 2:07:43 PM, DLR said:
Please note that SCE is not the only company offering roof-top plans. They may be one of the largest, and one of the regional utility monopolies, but there seem to be other(s) which are private and large-scale. I do not know who was "first" with the concept of modular, grid-driving, commercially installed and maintained systems. But I do know of at least one company that caters to residences. The first I heard of one, was in June 2007, and that company obviously had already been in business for a while. Thanks for those who have provided technical, business, and governmental insights in their comments. Thanks for the article.

at 1/31/2009 4:46:10 AM, saxmo said:
"Edison, buying in huge quantities, is able to get great prices on the newest in solar panel technology, " ~ Why doesn't Edison let all the solar companies and private users add their orders so the price can go even lower?

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