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Monday, July 21, 2008

Plug-in hybrids’ one little detail: The smart grid

I’ll be attending the Plug-In 2008 Conference in San Jose this week. I signed up for it even before I heard that Andy Grove is the keynote speaker on Tuesday. Grove’s topic will be, “the critical importance – and business opportunity and viability – of moving transportation from oil to electricity.”

Here are some of the questions I’m going to be asking the smart grid folks at the conference, which I got from Jeff Taft, my utilities-of-the-future go-to guy:

--How will PHEV's react to power line voltage sags and faults?

--Will a local power line fault damage a PHEV's power system?

--Will utilities have to resize all their distribution transformers and lateral line fuses because of the new loads?

--Will PHEV's be designed to ramp up demand slowly when plugged in or will they just take in inrush?

--Will they be designed to start taking power after a random delay so as to provide some load diversity beyond that which will arise more or less (mostly less) naturally?

Grove, ex-CEO and guiding light of Intel, wrote a popular biz book in the ‘90’s called “Only the Paranoid Survive.” After the rah-rah “We can move to renewables in the next ten years” talk of the past week, that’s a healthy attitude to have as we figure out how to get there from here.

Related entries in: Power Sources/Controllers | Solar/Photovoltaics |

Reader Comments

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at 7/21/2008 10:09:26 AM, Paul Rako said:
While you are at it ask him if they will use power factor correction and can the electric grid actually support all the cars pulling 2kw for 8 hours straight. Transformers like to cool down at night so they should be catching fire all over town. Also ask how many homeowners have the 200 amp service a PHEV needs.

at 7/21/2008 3:03:25 PM, Gizmonic Man said:
Paul, try not to be TOO overly optimistic about PHEVs--you'll ruin your image as a loveable but curmudgeonly engineer.

at 7/21/2008 3:12:10 PM, Dreamer in Austin Texas said:
Lets think about the possibility of covered parking that is comprised of thin film solar that is able to feed the energy into the cars parked below ? I realize that the portion of power that thin films solar may be able to produce will not directly fill up the PHEV but any offset from clean renewable energy has to be a plus.

at 7/21/2008 3:52:21 PM, FutureBoy said:
It seems to me that we need to double the line voltage of our country if we realistically want to handle the power demand. Do an announcement over the next 10 years stating this transition WILL take place and move from 110 to 220 like the rest of the world. Shoot, many of our products already support this range.

at 7/21/2008 4:30:26 PM, BlowEmUp said:
1. FutureBoy's suggestion reminds me of one a few years ago: in 1967 Sweden changed from driving on the left to driving on the right. It was soon suggested that this should also be done in Britain, but gradually: Lorries and motorcycles would switch one weekend, and autos the following weekend. For some reason this was never implemented. (Most of my electronics would not mind the suggested change, but washer, dryer, the "major" appliances are nominal 120 vac, usually 50/60 hz.) 2. PG&E is "offering" a contorl module for my AC compressor so they can control it during power alerts. A similar feature on the hybrid's charger could control recharging based on the grid's operability.

at 7/21/2008 8:09:48 PM, Ian Levine said:
It seems like a lot the concerns and problems over load leveling could be solved by bringing the market forces down to the residential level. The utility would have the ability to transmit rate tiers in real time that triggered different metering in the utility and was available both for automation or simple display for manual intervention. How much the the rates changed and whether a base level at nominal rates was allowed would be up to the marketing folks. Either way, this would provide a way to pass on high spot market rates and let people decide whether they want to use expensive electricity or cheap electricity and pay for it. In the EHV example, a cheap model would charge immediately when you plugged it in and someone who wanted to save money would need to wait until the rate went down and then plug it in. A more expensive model could be plugged in a programmed to start charging when a set cost tier was advertised by the utility. Both systems would let the car owner pay a premium to charge at a peak time if they need to turn around and drive again or top off for a trip that exceeds that car's range.

at 7/21/2008 9:00:20 PM, Jon said:
Are "GREEN" power PHEV's really all that green. I've been posing this question to everyone I can think of and I haven't heard a straight answer yet: 49% of our electrical power is produced by burning coal and 71% is produced from coal, petrol, natural, and other gases, all are non-renewable, and most aren't "green" for their lack of renewability and/or the by-products from their combustion; furthermore because there are always inefficiencies during energy conversion can you compare the total system efficiency of a theoretical all PHEV-world versus our current model? As an extension of that question, can you prove that by moving to PHEV's that we will produce less "green-house" gases than we already produce? First, I really don't believe in anthropomorphic climate change. We couldn't change the climate if we put our every resource to it short of creating a nuclear winter. Second, we have to realize that wherever we get our energy from we are taking it from something else that likely needs it as well. Gore says we can power the worlkd for a year with what hits the earth in 40 minutes from the sun (which I don't for one second believe), yet if we were to do that think of all the plants that go without those sun's rays, all the aquatic life that will miss it, then think about all the life that thrives in darkness and how they'll over-populate. If you're about to say "yea, right, we could never make that big an impact" then I rebut: "that's exactly what they said when we decided fossil fuels were the way to go." It all looks like a drop in the bucket in the beginning, then someone will come and say it's a huge hole in the ozone later. I'm all for shifting our energy sources, but we need to be intelligent about it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that PHEV's are going to make things worse. Lithium-ion batteries don't last worth anything in heat, which they will see in any vehicle, let alone poor charging conditions, which they will see from the layman user. Further inefficiencies from all those conversions from coal to AC to DC to battery storage that will lose capacity, to motors etc can NOT be as efficient as the internal combustion engine from the Watts in gas to the Watts driving the wheels. They've already proven that if you're not in stop-and-go traffic a HEV is LESS efficient than its all-combustion brother: the added weight and systems that go unused drag the ICE down more than running the AC with your windows open with your left foot on the brake, your transmission in low and a screwdriver through the side of your gas tank (okay, exaggeration, but then so is 40 minutes of sun lighting the world and driving its energy needs for a whole year!)

at 7/21/2008 10:06:56 PM, DVanditmars said:
Well I already have my very own GM Volt Tshirt, (now waiting for the actual car). I think what may be on horizon is for the chargers of PHEVs will need to communicate with the electrical grid to allow for load shedding as required. For me, the car will be plugged in when I get home after work and should start recharging after the dinner surge. This could be just a simple timer, or could be controlled by the electrical grid, (hopefully at some discounted rate). Either case the power draw needs to be managed by some method.

at 7/22/2008 7:15:16 AM, EV'er in ABQ said:
Paul Rako said: Transformers like to cool down at night...I find it hard to believe they're not rated for 100% duty cycle at rated output. ...how many homeowners have the 200 amp service a PHEV needs... I charged my BEV every night for several years in a 50 year old home that had a 60A service. It didn't draw any more than an electric clothes dryer. A PHEV would be much less, with it's correspondingly smaller battery pack and could likely be recharged from a 110 outlet. One possible solution to all cars charging at once might be accomplished with a program similar to one offered by my local utility, the "Power Saver". Amounts to a radio control connected to your A/C unit (or EV/PHEV charger) so they can remotely regulate the usage during peak periods. Additionally, chargers could be programmable to interface with time of use metering or simple delayed activation during non-peak periods.

at 7/22/2008 1:33:53 PM, hoistdoctor said:
Jon is right on. How can you possibly go through the energy conversions and expect to be efficient? Global climate change, holes in the ozone layer, CFL mercury poisoning....all BS!!

at 7/22/2008 1:47:08 PM, rap said:
My clothes dryers and ranges have ALWAYS used 220 volt power. I've never seen them run on only 110 VAC.

at 7/22/2008 3:02:41 PM, meg said:
responding to dreamer in Austin. Plus the shade from parking under thin film trellises would cool the cars, the environment and yes...add some power.

at 7/22/2008 8:28:04 PM, Mannstein said:
For all the smart engineers and environmental terrorists worrying about energy efficiency out there, coal is a lot cheaper than oil these days. It is bound to stay that way in the future. That's good enough for me. I may even switch from oil to coal to heat my residence, green house gases be damned.

at 7/23/2008 4:48:33 AM, kbdt said:
I read in IEEE Spectrum a couple of years ago that with the proper infrastructure, a large number of PHEVs could serve to balance the load on electricity generating plants. The cars would charge at night during off-peak hours, and they could be plugged in and SUPPLY electricity to the grid during peak hours. The Spectrum article even suggested that there would be net income to the vehicle owners, because the electricity they supply to the grid during peak demand is much more valuable than the electricity they draw during off peak hours. Electricity generated for a constant load is generated much more efficiently than that which is generated for peak loads. The total picture is very green.

at 8/22/2008 1:12:57 PM, PWS said:
In response to Jon, Gore's point is that the potential for tapping the sun's energy is huge. 40 minutes of sun hitting half the earth represents 6e20 Joules. The energy content of the worlds oil supply for 1 year represents 5e18 Joules.

at 8/25/2008 12:35:57 PM, jack K said:
Amreicans shop their pocket books. Screw the green earth until it's cost effective to do otherwise.

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