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Monday, June 4, 2007

Lithium polymer battery pack problems

Jun 4 2007 4:56AM | Permalink |Comments (11) |


My mechanical-engineering buddy Dave Ruigh bought an $8,000 dollar Go-one carbon fiber recumbent tricycle. He uses it to ride to work to keep his heart healthy. The Go-1 is completely enclosed — it looks like a little jet or BD5 airplane. Since it is enclosed Dave can peddle to work even when it is raining. But Dave is never happy even with out-of-the-ordinary transportation, so he decided to make an electric vehicle out of it. He points out that what the electric does is make the ride safer — rather then sailing though intersections and lights in order to keep you speed up, you don’t mind coming to a stop and then you can use the electric to get back up to speed and then peddle.

LiPo_battery_packDave installed a hub motor. Then Dave bought two $800 dollar lithium polymer battery packs. The top figure is one of the packs with the outer covering off. Each pack has 30 batteries with 10 sets of 3 parallel cells. If you are following LiPo performance in the model airplane world you know how amazing these batteries are for weight to power. Dave’s bike was 20 pounds heavier but the LiPo pack could drive it at highway speeds the 4 miles to work and back with no problem. Dave only used it a few times and then the pack had a problem. One of the cells in one of the packs swelled up. We both knew how hard it is to keep batteries balanced, especially when they are paralleled as in this pack. Dave was a little worried about handing the pack, there are kilowatts of energy in them, but after he got the bad cell out, he shot it with a pellet gun and then threw it in a tub of salt-water with no real drama. LiPo can burn but there is still a limited amount of energy. Jim Williams gave me his take on electric cars last week. He said “take a laptop battery and try to move a car with it—you might the down the driveway and a block away. Now that that same volume or weight of gasoline and pour that into the carburetor — the car should go a mile or two.” Dave reports::

LiPo_battery_swelledHere are some images of the pack after discharging and dismemberment. The Schulze charger was used to discharge the whole pack at about 0.4A. Although both the charger display and my direct measurement of the pack said it was at 33V, when disassembled, all the cells I could get to measured 3.7V. The positive tab of the bloated cell tore off flush when I attempted to extract it. It's likely the bad cell was taking a good portion of the current.

After the pack was disassembled and the offending cell removed, what to do with it? Well I would like to shoot some holes in the theories about LiPo safety, and that's exactly what I did. The puncture wounds were made with a Weihrauch HW45 4.5mm caliber spring piston pellet pistol. Apart from a tiny wisp of smoke that may have been dust from the plywood, no explosions or other violent results were noted.

LiPo_battery_shotI heard somewhere that a bucket of salt water is a good thing to immerse bad lipo cells in, and since vaguely remembered, anecdotal stories are as good as peer-reviewed science to me, I proceeded to mix up some saline and dump the cell in. A fair amount of gas was evolved initially, but it soon settled down to a slow boil. It now appears to have dissipated most of it's energy and only an occasional bubble can be seen.

I would think it would be nearly impossible to rebuild this pack into something useful, the way the wires are soldered nearly flush with the tabs would make in unworkable, and would also make selling the individual cells on eBay impossible.

LiPo_battery_salttNow it is certain that the batteries will be less dangerous once they are discharged. Too bad that Dave already used the bad cell for target practice since I would have been curious to see if it would take and hold charge. There are two more cells from that 3-cell parallel arrangement in the pack that I will get from Dave and abuse at our leisure. It will be fascinating to see if I can get them to swell and cause problems. And I will drive an ice pick thought a charged cell and see what happens. Batteries are a pain in the butt and if you can use a single cell instead you always should. And when you do have a battery try and avoid parallel cells. Also be sure to monitor the voltage and charge in each cell in a pack, it is the only sure way to protect and diagnose upcoming failures. This is why I am not too enthused about the Tesla battery pack that uses thousands of lithium ion cells all in series/parallel combinations. What a charge-discharge nightmare. And lithium may not be ready for EV use. Maybe that is why Toyota uses nickel metal hydride (273V, 228 1.2-V cells). Regenerative braking requires that you stuff charge back into the battery. Well, you can slam a ton of current into either of the nickel chemistries or lead-acid. Lithium batteries have far more restrictive charge regimes, so if you cannot push all the energy returned from braking into the battery by charging it fast, well then you have to dissipate it as heat in the brake pads. And here is your tax dollars at work: Thermal Evaluation of Toyota Prius Battery Pack (pdf).


Related entries in: Analog | Automotive | 


Reader Comments



at 6/4/2007 9:09:56 AM, Velomobile Dave said:
Paul,

I''ll do better than just give you the one cell, you can have the whole pack!

The bloated cell was breached, so charging it might have been an interesting light show, but with the missing tab it would have been impossible (pellet holes or no).



at 6/4/2007 12:43:26 PM, Mooney said:
Your friend Dave needs to find a woman.



at 6/4/2007 1:59:40 PM, Margery Conner said:
Talk to the guys at Maxwell Technologies about combining ultracaps with any battery technology for fast charge-discharge cycling - it makes a lot of sense. I don't get the battery weight vs a gallon of gas argument - you aren't throwing the battery away after you discharge it.



at 6/4/2007 2:01:21 PM, R10000 said:
The 4/3-AF size NiMH batteries are something like 125-150 Watt hours per Kg and can take quite a bit of punishment. The D sized ones I''ve seen specs for were rated for 6.5 AH but actually have a lower energy density. The lipo cells seem to fall around 200 WH / kg. A 30 pound pack that lasts would be better than a 20 pound pack that doesn''t



at 6/5/2007 6:12:14 AM, Velomobile Dave said:
Mooney wrote:
"Your friend Dave needs to find a woman."

You got that right, know any nice ones?

Re: high rate NiMh,
I''m not able to find any NiMh cells with that kind of power density, mind posting a link?

Ultracaps look attractive, but another charging and management system doesn''t. LiPo batteries are capable of very high discharge rates without significant capacity loss (unlike PbA). But there is a price to be paid... I was actually somewhat conservative with this pack, it''s capable of 10C continuous (75A), and 15C for a few seconds. I was controller limited to about 5C, which it rarely saw (well, except that one time on Central Expressway).



at 6/5/2007 4:49:30 PM, Tim said:
Paul, sounds like you had some fun with the poor little battery. I think that there is a battery package offered with a built in equalizer/charging system, this would perhaps help with your battery system. Also think that Maxwell or similar ultra capacitors could help with the fast discharge/charge rates of stop and go.



at 6/5/2007 9:44:50 PM, Paul Rako said:
Thanks for the tips Tim, actually it is Dave having all the fun but I think his headache is that he wanted lithium polymer cells and these don't come in a balanced pack (at least not yet). Maybe Dave can weigh in. And Margery, I like the battery versus gasoline analogy. In one you are storing energy in a little plating cell, in another you are storing energy in the chemical bonds of hydrocarbons. There is way more energy in chemical bonds so it still makes sense to use a gas engine rather than an electric motor. The fact that the battery is left after discharge is another major foible-- now you have to carry that dead weight around until you can spend a half day charging the thing. No, for mobile applications gasoline makes a lot of sense.



at 6/6/2007 1:18:38 PM, Velomobile Dave said:
Packs for RC and other applications are starting to show up with onboard balancing and charge protection circuitry, maybe it''s cheaper than the product liability lawyers. Re gasoline vs batteries, the best lithium batteries, (stated earlier) have a power density of 200 WHr/Kg. An efficient ICE can extract perhaps 3000 WHr per Kg of fuel or so. So you live with less range and a bit of extra weight. The neat little Honda GXH50 4 stroke 50cc motor weighs 12 lbs and has 1.6 HP. The Crystalyte electric hub motor, controller and 550 WHrs of lipos weigh around 24 lbs. With the right combination of controller and batteries, the hubmotor might be able to exceed the 1.6 HP, but not by much. However, electric motors generally have much more torque at low speeds and thus need no transmission.
Individual states determine the limits to power and means of propulsion for electric bikes, but here in California, e-bikes can have a killowat and must stay under 20mph. If gas powered, they can have up to 2 HP (why do they mix metric and english? it''s the _government_ remember?)



at 2/11/2009 9:14:50 PM, DeLaPlaza said:
You talk and TALK about RANGE in electrical vehicles, this is a ARTIFICIALLY CREATED PROBLEM. Looking for the secret of the "eternal and ideal battery". When I was a kid and my electric toy ran out of battery power, I JUST SWAPPED THE BATTERIES, the government should FORCE car manufacturers to BATTERY STANDARDS, in sizes, connector locations, remanufacture oriented designs. Even make available diferent technologies for diferent efficiencies, having battery packs of aproximately same voltages, easily adaptable to the car, with different programs of the computerized electric motor control.
Then big or heavy vehicles could use any number of standard battery packs, or simply have different standard sizes... like diferent gas grades... get the idea? Then the discharged batteries in ANY vehicle, could just be SWAPPED for a recharged battery ANYWHERE (like in any gas station... I mean recharging station), and the cost of the battery replacement and amount of unused energy left in the battery just prorated in every swap. Well... you get the idea, we are a bunch of MORONS prisioners of BIG oil and created interests of big corporations.



at 4/21/2009 4:14:43 AM, Phil_S said:
DePlaza - That exactly right!! I''m glad someone else shares my view on recharging versus swapping out the batteries!
The image that always comes to my mind when I think about this is a scene from "5th Element" were a Rasta-looking guys swaps out some sort of radioactive core out of a space shuttle type transporter. Thats what we need - we need swap out stations that store banks of batteries - efficiently charging them under optimal conditions, and then allowing drivers to swap out their spent batteries witht he charged ones, for a fee. Simply, elegant, and very doable with the proper government backing i''m sure.



at 1/4/2010 10:58:25 AM, Electric said:
Balancers protect your lithium cells:
electricmobile.ru/balancers-for-lithium-cells/

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