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Monday, March 31, 2008

Wanted or not, H-1B visa process starts on April 1

The new H-1B visa process begins tomorrow (April 1) and US tech businesses are bracing themselves for what will surely be more visa demand than there is supply.

H-1Bs will be provided to 65,000 people chosen at random from a pool of petitions filed in the first five business days in April, allowing the selected foreigners to begin work at a the US company that filed for them in the fiscal year starting October 1. But odds are it won’t take five business days to reach the H-1B petition cap. In fact, it’s a safe bet that the number of petitions will meet the cap by Wednesday. In 2007, it only took one day after starting the receipt of applications for the US Citizenship and Immigration Services to receive enough H-1B petitions to meet the congressionally mandated cap for fiscal year 2008.

Recently Bill Gates spoke to members of Congress on the "critical shortfall of skilled scientists and engineers," here in the US and urged H-1B visa reform, among other things, saying that without such action, he believes the US will not remain a global leader in technology innovation. We here on EDN’s news desk covered his statements to Congress and the story (Gates: US needs H-1B visa, education reform to stay competitive) garnered significant attention from our readers. Not so much because of Gates (although our readers took time to chew the Microsoft leader out), but more so because of the proposed H-1B visa reform.

Do you care if your company doesn’t get all the visas it wants? It seems, according to the talkback comments posted by our readers to the story, that you don’t. In fact, it look as if many of you would rather the H-1B visa cap was trimmed, not extended. Here’s one of my favorite comments, posted by Reid Shipp, a self-identified design engineer in Texas: “The more H-1B engineers we have, the less engineers get paid. The less engineers get paid, the fewer students go into engineering. Pay engineers what doctors and lawyers get paid and there will be plenty of homegrown engineers.” Reader TJ Cunningham also made a good point, noting a separate EDN article on industry layoffs: “Why are the companies that scream the loudest for H-1B expansion are also cutting staff?” One reader, Leonard Reinhart in Florida, makes his point more personal: “My daughter is very bright, but I would never encourage her to become an engineer or scientist. I don't want her to become a second-class member of the society.”

The common thread among the comments and what we on the news desk often hear from EEs is that A) you are under appreciated, B) you are under paid, and C) there is little to nothing being done by the US education and employment systems to encourage student interest in math and science, leaving a major gap in tomorrow’s tech innovation process.

First off, there’s no argument to those points. In my non-EE opinion (journalist, not an engineer, here), all three are true and easily proven. But from my point of view, however you slice this visa-education-salary situation, it should be considered a paramount matter of national security to create and keep top tech talent in the US.

We can talk about tech innovation bringing us cooler iPods, faster laptop, and smaller cell phones all we want, but the greatest value (and, unfortunately, perhaps most profitable aspect) of engineering talent isn’t in the future of consumer and business comforts, it’s in defense. Terrorism is fueled by tech. Wars are started, fought, and won based on innovations. Mobile artillery, the nuclear bomb, cruise missiles, submarines, robots utilized in combat are just a few examples of engineering’s presence in warfare. Gates touched on national security briefly in his testimony to members of Congress. And in reading his comments, I was frustrated that he didn’t weigh this point more heavily, particularly in a time of war when Congress and the American people would be more compelled to listen.

US defense and national security, the largest segment of government spending, needs homegrown EEs, not only to remain a global leader in technology innovation but to remain a global leader period. Without this, we leave ourselves vulnerable and will surely slip in our global standing. Meanwhile, other nations continue to benefit from our misguided policies.

Share your comments on the H-1B visa situation, Gates’ statements, or securing the US’ future below.

--Suzanne Deffree, Managing Editor, News

Reader Comments

(Add your comments)

at 3/31/2008 1:07:17 PM, Cohen said:
The artificial caps are ridiculous. The market should govern the supply and demand. Maybe engineers fon't get paid as much as attorneys and doctors because they don't deserve it.

at 3/31/2008 1:57:41 PM, coward said:
US homegrown talent? Look at the names of people publishing in scientific journals and lecturing on top universities in US! It's foriegn talent that keep US going, but homeland security is going the best keep it away.

at 3/31/2008 2:00:41 PM, Otoh said:
Maybe one of the reasons attorneys and doctors get paid much more is that there is no H-1B equivalent for _them_.

at 3/31/2008 2:06:01 PM, Mike said:
I'm an software engineer born in North Carolina. I think the US should do everyting it can to create, train _and attract_ top engineering talent to live and work here. I can't see how it can possibly hurt America to encourage PhDs to move here, raise their kids here, attend our schools, pay our taxes and otherwise live their lives in the US. In my experience working with lots of folks using H1-B visas and green cards, once these engineers live and work here thay are members of the American society and contribute more than the average American. These high-achieving individuals enhance our country. We should encourage them to come here and stay.

at 3/31/2008 2:06:06 PM, foolish said:
When competing on low cost, outsourcing to a less expensive talent pool makes sense. But when competing on technology advancement, margin is of lesser concern and rather having immediate access to the required talent is paramount. Any legislative barrier to gaining immediate access to top talent will naturally deter the US from competing on technology advancement, and will rather encourage yet more outsourcing.

at 3/31/2008 2:08:27 PM, SS said:
US needs to reform its employment based visa and greencard policies. Thousands of hardworking, talented hi tech engineers and scientists who are here contribute positively to the advancement of science and technology in this country and efforts should be made to acknowledge that and retain them here through easier path to Greencard and work visas.

at 3/31/2008 2:14:14 PM, IronHand said:
It would be so nice if defense were a priority issue, and not just with respect to the H1-B visa discussion. Defense is in practice important to almost no one. You mentioned something about this being a time of war; there has been no declaration of war. Congress, given the power to declare war by the US Constitution, WILL NOT use its power. A declaration of war implies a respect for the sovereignty of nations, something not done by any agency of the Federal government since WWII. The "global economy" undermines sovereignty. "Free trade" undermines sovereignty. One could argue whether or not H1B visas are a symptom or a cause of undermining sovereignty. If Congress would reassume their proper Constitutional role, they would pass a TARIFF (a dirty word in the mouths of globalists) and protect the economic sovereignty of the US. Then the H1B visa would be a non-issue because American companies would hire Americans again to do work in America for Americans. Then the defense sovereignty could follow naturally. Let's not forget what defense is supposed to be defending: the limited government bequeathed to us by the Founders in the US Constitution. With limited government, citizens are FREE. With omnipotent government, citizens are SLAVES. Does anyone remember that?

at 3/31/2008 2:15:37 PM, Bill said:
I am a H-1B visa holder working in the cell phone industry, I would welcome the opportunity to assist in US defense technology, but sadly these positions are generally only open to US citizens. H-1B holders have their hands tied, we can''t change jobs easily. Not only are we low paid engineers we are at the mercy of the USCIS and have no say in our future career prospects.

at 3/31/2008 2:15:38 PM, Tee said:
I know there are some companies who abuse the tech worker program. I strongly believe that there should be a regulation to ban employers from hiring foreign workers if they lay off American workers performing the same job duties for which they seek a foreign immigrant. The employers capitalize on the weakness of these foreign candidates (the candidates needs a visa to secure employment in this country and the employers hold the key). So, they give a low salary to hire them and the immigrant employees do not complain - more so, because the same employer has to process their documents for permanent immigration. So, essentially, even if the immigrant is qualified to this job by his own merit - he gets a lower pay and that finally drives down the pay for all the other engineers (American or not). So, we need more regulation to prevent employers from purposefully driving the wages down. If more H1-B visas are doled out without any investigation, other engineers might as well shelve any hopes for a raise or a promotion.

at 3/31/2008 2:19:38 PM, Common Sense said:
The way to reform the H-1B visa issue is to do what the doctors have done in the medical field. All h-1B applicants need to sit for an exam developed by the IEEE. The cost of the exam needs to be born by the companies. This way we can control the quality of engineers coming into this country just the way the AMA claims that they control the quality of doctors.

at 3/31/2008 2:24:09 PM, JS said:
There is not a shortage of talent in the US, though there is a lack of new engineers coming out of our schools; In fact, the H-1B campaign described was all about creating a glut of cheaper technology workers to the detriment of local talent. Without an equivalent supply and expedited green card process, these H-1B workers end up in endentured servitude - because changing jobs restarts the clock on the greencard process. The pitch that employers are seeking the experts, the most talented and experienced, is false... we created nost of that here and they are our own citizens. They are looking for cheap commodity workers to abuse. This is not market balance... this is a way of creating slaves. Also - a lot educate here and take the knowledge and experience home. We need to quit destroying our own communities at the behest of corporate america... there are trade imbalances all over, and we are smiling while we destroy ourselves on poor quality and sometimes poisonous products. Simply letting "the market" determine the dynamic without also bringing our brains - is folly. Our field probably has a more aggressive learning curve, more exacting measures of performance(how many lawyers and doctors are paid purely by results?), and more real connection with national prosperity. The owners are killing the golden geese... our tax bases are drying up, our bridges are failing... because we are propping up other economies sending our money elsewhere. We do need to be more productive... we also need our government to fix policy and quit going hat-in-hand to coprporate america over its true constituents. We are in a new period of "taxation without representation".

at 3/31/2008 2:26:11 PM, Tom said:
Engineers at my company get treated like line workers, but we put in many more hours/day. As long as H-1B Visa's continue to get extended, wages will remain low, respect low and fewer will look to the field of engineering for a career. I agree we're in a global economy and diversification is good, but there needs to be a firm limit.

at 3/31/2008 2:41:18 PM, John V Portland said:
H1B visas have historically been a great way for great people to become US citizens. However, the system is now very broken. H1B visas should be split geographically by state in proportion to the electoral college votes. After that the states should determine the proportion of bachelors, masters, and doctoral degrees to hire. The final determination of who are the "Best and Brightest" should be in simple units of dollars. Those with the highest dollar 3-year contracts within their degree class win. That way the H1B system becomes selective and does not produce downward pressure on tech wages for all.

at 3/31/2008 2:44:01 PM, Brian said:
I am a VP of engineering at a small company on LI. Those who call for lifting the H1-B cap are as guilty of short term thinking as is Wall Street. Long term solutions such as nuturing home grown talent are needed. Reader Mike, the software engineer from NC, doesn't get it. Importing PHDs may help in the short term but how does that encourage our youth to pursue engineering? America's youth needs to see other native born Americans study and succeed in engineering. We must develop our own excellence instead of depending on outsiders for it, or the Republic is surely lost. For, as Suzanne points out, national security needs to be a concern. Reader Cohen displays unusual arrogance and stupidity in his post. Engineering is just as vital to our nation as medicine, and it can be argued that engineers are much more vital than lawyers, and deserve their level of compensation. Indeed, other advanced nations, including those who threaten our technological supremacy, have far fewer attorneys per capita than we do. Bill Gates testimony before congress is motivated by greed and is an attempt to improve Microsoft's bottom line. Any politician that does not see this deserves to be tarred and feathered. And why not?

at 3/31/2008 2:44:34 PM, Chris said:
For every engineer H-1B have one for a doctor or lawyer to come in a dilute their workforce.

at 3/31/2008 2:44:58 PM, Logic said:
The logic is pretty clear. Have unstable and low paid engineering jobs waiting for you when you finish schooling with 60 000 USD in debt, have low recognition for what you do, work more than 40 hours per week while getting paid for only 40 and wonder why people don't want go into engineering? Many people who do finish engineering school will work in other filed for those very reasons. Urging people to go into engineering in greater numbers is putting a cart in front of a horse! Pay us what lawyres and doctors get and give us some recognition, control supply by imposing mandatory licensing just like doctors and lawyers have to and you will see scores engineers coming out of the woodwork and engineering school enrollment will be up! Wake up America, stop bringing in cheap Indian engineers working here for minimal wages, that's a modern day slavery! One more thing, the time is right to start outsourcing CEO's and journalists!

at 3/31/2008 2:45:26 PM, JW said:
As an employer, I know that you cannot legally pay a foreign worker any less than a domestic worker in the same position. There are laws in place to prevent that, and significant obstacles to be overcome in recruiting and hiring foreign talent. That said, its the law of supply and demand. The more H1-Bs we allow, the more engineers US employers will have to choose from. So I agree there should be a cap. 65,000 is not a large number in the scheme of things. Encouraging the immigration of foreign talent benefits our country in the long term. Like any plan that potentially upsets the natural balance, it needs to be managed, regulated, and controlled.

at 3/31/2008 2:50:46 PM, JS said:
I would suggest that dissauding a child from pursuing that science or engineering career may also be folly... In the global economy, the people who will benefit from the future are the ones who create it; We are in a competitive atmosphere now though... see the video "Two Million Minutes" if you are a parent... Seriously. Certification... a test... something to know about tests is that they normalize on a set of terms and practices, but they are often years behind reality. The PMI PmBOK might be useful... if that fits your organization... but there are newer and more expeditious methods that also have met with success. Many certifications today end up being vendor-aligned... big mistake. We used to be called electrical engineers and software engineers... now we are called java programmers; There is little appreciation of the depth of education or judgement - we are being measured by vendor alignment and not innovation or design skills. Competing on cost only - is short term thinking; Testing often gets you only the personality types that align with the test.... getting INTJs (Myers-Briggs Personality types) only will limit the team and a test will keep you from hiring their complementary paersonality match. Tests might be a tool... but lots of other things matter; I wouls submit that in the technical field we hire worse than any other... because we never understand how to hire people - we hire data books... Asking a prospective hire "how to move mount fuji" is not a completely stupid question. American workers with experience are not automatically out-of-date... they were retooling constantly; The alignment to vendors is a new fixation. There is too much bias toward special experience - versus demonstrated fast ramp-up skills, aptitude, desire, true value-add, depth, and leadership/collaboration skills. Can any of your engineers write a coherent proposal or make a decent speach? Some will see company needa and produce innovative solutions... others will milk the problem and write code forever, unable to release; Are we finding the right ones? I can read the encyclopedia as good as the next guy... I see innovation rarely.

at 3/31/2008 2:55:37 PM, noel said:
Presently in the USA, the engineering education is in crisis and there are not incentives for the young Americans to be engineers. The real technology challenges are ahead of us and the security of the country will depend on the creativity of the American people. At time of war, The HB1 visa program is a short term solution that makes the USA more vulnerable and less innovative

at 3/31/2008 2:58:04 PM, Bill99 said:
It is not a shortage of engineering talent in this country. It is that there is a shortage of talent that talent so desperate that they will work for the slave labor that the wealthy are willing to pay. To top things off, if we do not get the influx of desperate foreign engineers, those companies will outsource the jobs even if means compromising national security by allowing our technology and tax base to go abroad. They seem willing to risk our very economic structure for their greed. The wealthy never seem to realize that the future of our nation is at risk when they participate in the race to the bottom salary. Henry Ford paid his employees a salary that allowed them to afford to buy his product. OUR MBAs seem to have forgotten that.

at 3/31/2008 3:02:44 PM, JS said:
I think when we have retrained or retooled our american workers, we can rationalize opening the floodgates.... that is when demand truly exists; Avoiding support of employee growth is killing us, just as failing to educate our citizens because we can make more off foreign students. We could raise tuition for state schools a long time and have plenty of foreign money - we should let it also subsidize our internal capabilities; State schools should first cater to citizens. And government has a duty to help create this.

at 3/31/2008 3:09:10 PM, Mike said:
Right-on Suzanne, "it should be considered a paramount matter of national security to create and keep top tech talent in the US." Why are we giving these foreign engineers the ability learn our high tech secrets, both commercial and military, and allow them to take these secrets back home to their original countries with a plausible plan to defeat America economically and perhaps militarily? This is already happening! Open your eyes America before it is too late. If we don't stop this insane process, in the future it will be our engineers that are applying for H-1B visas to India, China, etc.

at 3/31/2008 3:12:26 PM, Aha said:
Wow-- we saw so many such comments provided, semi tongue in cheek, in this article... It is really interesting to see what happens years later after all these "second-class member of the US society" leave this country -- good or no good, this seems to be happening right now...

at 3/31/2008 3:16:37 PM, Samba said:
Looks like nobody is looking at the data. Who is getting the H1B visas? Indian IT consulting firms mostly not US firms. the date is avalable at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa. The VISAs requested by these companies are not for US graduates, but fresh graduates from Indian universties who get trained in the US and are then sent back to India to do outrsourced jobs at much lower salaries. Lawyers and doctors get higher salaries, because their profession are highly regulated and have a barrier of entry that keep foreigners away. Saying it is due to supply and demand shows that you do not know anything about economics.

at 3/31/2008 3:20:55 PM, KM said:
If H-1B visas are such an important part of our free market economy, why not auction them and make sure they go where they are of the most value? I've listened to the Bill Gate's interviews on H-1Bs. Whenever the interviewer asks about raising engineering wages instead Bill quickly changes the subject instead of answering the question. Its clear he is being dishonest about his desire for low cost labor and he doesn't care about whether he destroys the US engineering profession anymore than whether he destroys the truly innovative software companies that compete with him.

at 3/31/2008 3:28:23 PM, Randy, MBA,, BS Economics said:
The facts of the last 10 years are undeniable. Increase salaries and opportunities for Engineers and programmers and the schools will be overflowing. Bring in H1Bs and you will need more H1Bs. It is self fulfilling. Note, there is nothing in the study of International Economics that can account for the social fall out from 2 billion people (China and India) industrializing simultaneously. Remember, 10 years is a long time to work without your salary keeping up with inflation, much less going down as it has in engineering since Congress started getting campaign contributions from the Silicon Valley.

at 3/31/2008 3:38:38 PM, SS said:
Couple of clarifications. H1B professionals have to be paid a prevailing wage. This is the rule and its a prerequisite for getting labor certification. So I don''t understand how H1B professionals can be called cheap labor? Most of the employers end up paying the lower end of the range because they have to pay the immigration attorney''s and high visa fees. The H1B filing fee has been raised to help encourage local engineering talents and so until that pays off, H1B workforce are key to this nation's success. Let us recoginize the positive contributions of these hardworking workers who relocate at short notice, pay all the taxes(social security and medicare) and had to make sacrifices in order to come here and help a company succeed. Beware that the climate is getting better backhome and elsewhere and you cannot take them for granted anymore.

at 3/31/2008 3:45:08 PM, Nick said:
There is no engineering shortage and I have advocated this for some time. U.S. House of Representatives got an ear full from Alfred P. Sloan Foundation Vice President Michael Teitelbaum late last year where he pointed out the lack of shortage. "In fact, there are ''substantially more'' scientists and engineers graduating in the U.S. than there are jobs," he stated. The Sloan Foundation is a nonprofit organization that studies topics in science and technology. It has no ax to grind when it comes to engineering salaries. Perhaps that’s why Teitelbaum was unable to discern any sign of a "looming shortfall" in engineers. In fact, researchers from institutions such as the Rand Corp, Harvard University, the National Bureau of Economic Research, and Stanford University, have all come to this same conclusion. Teitelbaum stated "A labor economist would notice that engineering salaries have been flat and declining in some fields. Engineering unemployment rates are closer to the average unemployment rate than they ever have been. Those factors do not suggest a shortage." "In my judgment," added Teitelbaum, "what you are hearing is simply the expressions by interest groups and their lobbyists." These do not represent the career interests of engineers. Those speaking out on engineering employment tend to be "employers and their associations, universities and their associations, funding agencies, and immigration lawyers and their associations." These groups have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion of an engineering shortage and have been pulling the wool over the eyes of Congress. At look at who is publishing in scientific and trade journals is no measure of whether there is a shortage. U.S. citizen Engineers and scientists must compete with holders of H-1B visas to keep their jobs and spend a LOT more than 40 or 60 hours a week on the job, some of which may be at home and over weekends. (I know this because I do as have many colleagues I''ve at many companies where I have worked.) There is not much time for writing, except for reports. (Lately, however, I have taken to writing more for trade jouirnals as I am nearing retirement and ofloading a lot of work responsibilities to others.) I would completely agree with the H1-B visa program if the "imported" engineers were paid the same salary as U.S. citizen engineers and scientists, provided that does not mean a degradation of all salaries of engineers and scientists. If that were the case, however, I believe that employers would not be going through the paperwork needed to get those visas.

at 3/31/2008 3:45:09 PM, Nick said:
There is no engineering shortage and I have advocated this for some time. U.S. House of Representatives got an ear full from Alfred P. Sloan Foundation Vice President Michael Teitelbaum late last year where he pointed out the lack of shortage. "In fact, there are ''substantially more'' scientists and engineers graduating in the U.S. than there are jobs," he stated. The Sloan Foundation is a nonprofit organization that studies topics in science and technology. It has no ax to grind when it comes to engineering salaries. Perhaps that’s why Teitelbaum was unable to discern any sign of a "looming shortfall" in engineers. In fact, researchers from institutions such as the Rand Corp, Harvard University, the National Bureau of Economic Research, and Stanford University, have all come to this same conclusion. Teitelbaum stated "A labor economist would notice that engineering salaries have been flat and declining in some fields. Engineering unemployment rates are closer to the average unemployment rate than they ever have been. Those factors do not suggest a shortage." "In my judgment," added Teitelbaum, "what you are hearing is simply the expressions by interest groups and their lobbyists." These do not represent the career interests of engineers. Those speaking out on engineering employment tend to be "employers and their associations, universities and their associations, funding agencies, and immigration lawyers and their associations." These groups have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion of an engineering shortage and have been pulling the wool over the eyes of Congress. At look at who is publishing in scientific and trade journals is no measure of whether there is a shortage. U.S. citizen Engineers and scientists must compete with holders of H-1B visas to keep their jobs and spend a LOT more than 40 or 60 hours a week on the job, some of which may be at home and over weekends. (I know this because I do as have many colleagues I''ve at many companies where I have worked.) There is not much time for writing, except for reports. (Lately, however, I have taken to writing more for trade jouirnals as I am nearing retirement and ofloading a lot of work responsibilities to others.) I would completely agree with the H1-B visa program if the "imported" engineers were paid the same salary as U.S. citizen engineers and scientists, provided that does not mean a degradation of all salaries of engineers and scientists. If that were the case, however, I believe that employers would not be going through the paperwork needed to get those visas.

at 3/31/2008 3:59:21 PM, MR said:
The tech lead that this country has is not great, if not slim as it is. Not having enough engineering talent to keep pace with fast catching up competition is silly if not downright stupid. Those that suggest that the cap is sufficient need be tarred and feathred along with management who feel the same due to their own petty,narrow and chauvinist beliefs. Too late to expect home grown talent to fill up currently vacant positions. Its better to make plans to encourage talent to join engineering while getting the head count to keep competitiveness up in the meanwhile. If the competetiveness goes then the other smaller home grown industries will also be swept away. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

at 3/31/2008 4:27:17 PM, huh said:
WOW Classic case of brain washing someone to believe that all problems in the nation are due because of foreigners, I believe Hitler did this too! so is Lou Dobbs now... Of Course H1b is abused but is their an alternative visa for a foreign scholar or an entrepreneur???? Hope the editor does some research on this!

at 3/31/2008 4:27:42 PM, mk said:
talk about artifical caps. do you have any idea what it takes for a foreign doctor to practice in the us? one practically has to go through the medical school again. lift those artificial limitations, see what happens to the pay of doctors.

at 3/31/2008 5:22:06 PM, rb said:
The U.S. has been slowly losing technology for many years now. Its being given to foreign countries. It is a matter of national security. Adding more H1B visas will not stop this theft of our technology. The only purpose is for the overly super rich to make more money from labor. Our education community has dropped the ball. I have seen so many excellent people being layed off and replaced that you would have to be in a stupor to disagree. We do not currently have the ability to adequately fight a World War if we had one, and that can very well happen at any time. So you bleeding heart H1B advocates don''t come here and cry H1B, because as far as I am concerned you are traitors. I could go on and on with more reasoning, however, I just do not have the time. So have a nice day and remember their are many issues to consider with adding more H1B visas.

at 3/31/2008 5:55:48 PM, CommonSense said:
It is very simple. If there is really a shortage of engineers, give green cards to those foreigners with Master degrees and Phds. Then, they have a choice to where to work and will not depress American Engineers'' salary. Current situation is the best system for the employer, they can claim there is shortage but they hold all the cards and can stop the H1 holders to get a better paying job.

at 3/31/2008 6:24:03 PM, Tom said:
Tomorrow’s innovation cannot come strictly from our monolithic line of thought and available resources. The problems that we want solutions for tomorrow are too complex, too many and too large. Honoring H-1B''s is a great way to move forward for us. However, we cannot expect any kind of loyalty from the best and the brightest of other countries when their long-term status in the US remains almost casually uncertain and at times unnecessarily troubling throughout their stay.

at 3/31/2008 8:06:35 PM, Ken said:
Why would any parent be so stupid as to direct their extremely bright child into engineering. It can be globalized, and engineers make far less elsewhere, and if they need you here, you can direct a subsidiary overseas working off hours so you can stay in touch. The only professions that should be considered are for bright kids are high paying, growing demand, professions that can't be moved offshore. That means lawyers and doctors, neither of which contribute one penny to the real GDP, but no one else seems to care about that. Doctors fix the bodies and lawyers protect intellectual property. Soon, US bodies won't be needed in either research or operations, and without new US ideas, who will need the lawyers. These are "leech costs" that the US now values more than creative energy. And with the legal environment and half of the world's capital overseas...soon, the idea of even needing the US as a market will vanish. The US has decided it doesn't value creativity...what will the value of other US workers be when the US is nothing more than a nice tourist stop.

at 3/31/2008 10:27:56 PM, Indian said:
US Companies want to sell their goods in countries like india & china hiding behind words like "free market" "Globalisation" etc. Why cant the American Job market be a free market? Let the market decide the salaries. Remove the H1B Cap & let american engineers compete with Indian & Chinese engineers.

at 3/31/2008 10:38:54 PM, NoWay said:
My friend’s kid was a National Merit finalist that graduated from a prominent school with an engineering degree only to search a year to find a job. They didn’t even get a good job. This shortage is a myth and it has been for 10 years. H1B visa employees are getting screwed by American companies and the employers know it. They are paid less and can’t just go get another job. They have to stay in the same job to qualify for their citizenship, but they may not get the citizenship they’re seeking because some employers never bother to fill out the paperwork. During the last downturn my company fired well paid older American workers with outstanding credentials and hired cheap foreign PhDs right out of school with no experience. Americans aren’t going into engineering because their parents tell them not to. Companies say they want to hire the best but the companies themselves are not exactly the best either. Companies say they can’t get engineering talent but what they lack is management talent. My current company keeps getting pressure from Wall Street to outsource the activities at my plant, but we are the only plant making money and several products that were outsourced were disasters. And it was the exact same thing the previous place I worked.

at 3/31/2008 11:54:13 PM, An Indian''s VIew said:
(I am an electronics engineer working in India.) For an Indian, America is still the land of opportunities. The top talent from my Engineering class went for higher education to the US, got jobs and have eventually settled there. They want to get greencard, lead a successful, prosperous, free life in the US. They are willing to become loyal _Americans_ and want to raise their children as Americans. Very few return. In India, we see this as a loss to our talent pool (brain drain). As I know, the US has been built by talented and hardworking people who migrated over last few hundred years, the process continues even today. It is this diversity and talent that gives them an edge in the global market. It is natural that the people who have settled in the US for generations now see the newcomers as _foreigners_ and do not like the competition from people who are ready to work harder. They would tend to oppose the H1-B visas. Getting the best people from all over the world to become citizens (very much like recruiting the best talent into your organization and retaining them) seems to be of obvious long term advantage to the US. I however cannot comment on the issue of national security - just hope the intention is genuine.

at 4/1/2008 4:16:43 AM, JS said:
Nobel Economist Milton Friedman: "There is no doubt, that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy." .... When the government supplies non-U.S. workers to an industry, that''s a subsidy. When those workers accept minor-league wages, that''s a big subsidy. When those outsiders want a benefit that can be supplied only by the government, like a green card, even regulations intended to protect U.S. workers can skew the labor market against citizens. American workers won''t support a minor league that runs against their interests, and winks and nods don''t fool them. .... So call the H-1B visa what it is: a subsidy that runs counter to the real interests of both IT workers and free-market thinkers. ... More from economists and others ... Re: www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,72848,00.html

at 4/1/2008 4:22:37 AM, Germenius said:
I can subscribe to the same point of view that H-1B is detrimental for our economy. It''s a brain drain for Germany like for other European countries. And as not so many people in the world speak German it''s hard to compensate for this "Go West to the Country of Unlimited Possibilities" by inviting in from other countries. So yes, please stop H-1B, and leave us these INTELLIGENT talents that are STUPID enough to work for slavery working conditions (wonder where the fallacy is in this contradiction).

at 4/1/2008 5:01:03 AM, SJ said:
It is essentially... Same stuff, different day. Other countries adopt protectionist measures against US imports while we happily import cheap, lead-coated toys for walmart. We fire senior government employed firefighters because they can not speak the foreign tongues of more recent hires(Oregon) even when lives are at stake. We talk to customer-facing service people - a job that hinges on communication - that often have horrible accents and fake names and usually can do little "on-the-ground" because they are not close enough to the problem, empowered with any access or decent skillset, or because you have to call cheese queso(Spanish for cheese). We lost a lot of business to Toyota on Quality and fast cycle times; But now we are just plain giving our livelihoods away. Corporate America and lobbyists... in bed with your elected officials; I would venture to bet that most of the rich have already cleared a path and found a retirement home in Costa Rica. America will soon be squalor... Unless we do some overdue course correction soon. Our tax bases are drying up and our bridges are crumbling.

at 4/1/2008 5:08:56 AM, The World Market said:
I propose that we do support our children in a move to engineering or science... simply that we also equip them with the knowledge that the best place to work may now be overseas - where the pay can get you the life you need. We also need to equip them with the knowledge that being the best - and a free agent - will be preferable to a commodity employee; Employers are not giving loyalty anymore - neither should we. Charging for real value - and living where the money works - versus depending on an employer and your government - may be the only thing that works now. The internet has finished leveling the field - You can only compete now on productivity and ideas; and hope trade finds some reasonable balance. For now the US is still my choice - But our leaders are making it questionable.

at 4/1/2008 7:04:56 AM, Greg Gutshall said:
Supply and Demand! By limiting the supply of Engineers, Industry will go else where.

at 4/1/2008 7:45:11 AM, Peter J. Merkin said:
Lets face it, Engineers are a commodity. If there truly was a "shortage" wages would rise and companies would not dump them when they turn 50. When the CEO of Bear Stearns get 380 million of taxpayer money on the way out the door after corkscrewing his company into the ground we are lectured to by the MBA's the "Well, you have to pay for talent" If engineers are needed companies will "pay for talent" Until then the only occupations with a future are: Business (MBA), Medicine, or Law.

at 4/1/2008 8:21:48 AM, You think you have it bad said:
I don''t support government intervention such as tariffs, subsidies, or protectionist regulations, which will only cause more US uncompetitiveness, offshoring of engineering jobs, and loss of IP (think about what such government actions and unions have done to manufacturing jobs, consumer prices, and the US economy in general). But there is a lot of stupidity being demonstrated by US corporate executives who think that proven innovative engineers can easily be replaced with cheaper, less experienced engineers (some of who may be from other countries). While most companies are not as stupid as one I am very familiar with, which eliminates the internal technical career track by using forced ranking to weed out experienced technical people in a declining pool that is usually replenished only with "moldable" replacements that are fresh out of college. This company also has strong "diversity" quotas which recruit mostly non-white applicants, including foreigners, and such diversity hires are virtually immune to being force-ranked in the bottom category so that the company can boast of having a "diverse and inclusive workforce". This strategy is instructive because it demonstrates the thinking prevalent in some management circles that it is not "who you are" as an individual that matters, but "what you are" as a group identity (this morally and intellectually bankrupt view fails to see that it is individuals who innovate and excel, not particular group identities). Outsourcing and offshoring are also high priorities for this company, which values IP about as much as its stock of toilet paper. Useless processes such as "design for six sigma" are in place to make each project more of an exercise in bureaucracy than in innovation, which hasn''t been completely killed yet in this company, but the writing is on the wall and the prospects are grim. Note that this company is not focused on electronics, its technology is relatively low-tech, and it is one of only a few in a tightly regulated market, which allows it to stay competitive with such self-destructive, social engineering policies. I would hope that most US companies don''t operate anything like this, but to the extent that they do I am very worried about the future of the US.

at 4/1/2008 8:42:43 AM, Carlos said:
I think the problem does not reside only in the number of visas issued but in the process to get it too. I currently hold an H-1B visa. The process to get it is long and slow. I think the process should be simplified and case by case. This is my personal opinion.

at 4/1/2008 12:20:28 PM, Visa issue a hoax said:
Jeez, why don't they just try employing some of the hordes of out-of-work US citizen engineers! Oh, thats right, they might have to pay a fair wage to do so! This H1B Visa issue is a red herring set up by multinationals to get cheap labor AT THE EXPENSE of America's competitiveness! Don't let them do it!

at 4/1/2008 12:38:53 PM, Dr. Brainless said:
To attract more oversea talents to engineering and tech is only a short term strategy, but is harder and harder to attract talents from already riched countries, such as Japan, European countries, Taiwan and sooner and later China etc, which means a long term solution should be a stratege to encorage more domestic talents to join the tech area. We wasted too many talants in laywer, political, finance, medical doctor, most of which are very high pay career, compared to engineering and tech. I do not think a doctor working in a little clinic needs more brain than an engineer. High pay has driven more anud more talent youngs to a place needing much less brian area, basically wasting country''s already poor human resource. I would like to say, wake up, USA, this is the most serious problem in today''s USA! We are trying to save environment, trying to save natual resource, but how about human resource? Keep wasting?

at 4/1/2008 12:57:41 PM, Motor City said:
It''s ashame Americans Engineers can''t get good engineering jobs. Thanks to the Red,White, and Blue great American corporations. You boys and girls are doing a very good job taking away the lives of americans. Thats right go for it! Get all the money. But let''s see what the hell your H-1B folks do when all americans get fed-up and stop buying your products and using your services. Or maybe Americans take actions and kick your company out the country. Go where you hire people.

at 4/1/2008 1:00:37 PM, AEA President said:
Nothing like bringing in the “Best and the brightest.” We have been doing this every year for 50 years. Once we brought in yesterday’s B & B and they get culture and experience and draw a higher salary we through them away. Yesterday’s foreign imported worker becomes today’s victim and today’s foreign imported worker will be tomorrow’s victim. It’s all about money and cheap labor. Wonder why American students are advised against STEM careers!

at 4/1/2008 1:09:30 PM, Lisa said:
People who keep saying that hiring foreign professionals with H-1B visa means hiring cheap labor obviously have no idea what they are talking about.All H-1 visa sponsors (employers) are required to file with Department of Labor and get certified for the jobs. This ensures that employers do not hire foreigners with lower salary.Also those who complain about job security need to ask themselves if they have competitive qualifications. This country started with immigrants coming all over the world and it''s known as the "melting pot" that attracts the brightest scholars, scientists, and many other professionals. Before we all get confused between these highly educated professional and illegal-cheap-labor workers, we need to understand that these H-1B applicants or holders are not as cheap labor as you may think at all.Those who feel unsecured about their jobs should think how they can improve themselves and be more competitive in the market. And we should think about how we can improve the education system for our children.This is a global market and we should all have a mentality that we need to excel ourselves and compete with the rest of the world. Just because we cut down foreign workers in this country doesn''t mean that there will not be any competition.Even if we totally eliminate the foreign workers, we will still have issues within the country, i.e. race, age discriminations.We need to take an active role and be thinking on how to improve ourselves. I don''t doubt that there are companies out there taking advantages of the H-1B visa. However, if we keep improving ourselves and stay ahead of the rest of the world, it would be less and less companies here hiring foreign workers (even the quota goes up to 195,000).People who still stay in the baby-boomer mentality need to understand that the world has totally changed. There is no “job security” if you can’t keep up with the world and qualifications.The issue is not about whether or not to raise the quota. It''s about how we need to take an active role to be a life-time learner and keep improving ourselves. With this global market, we can''t just expect that we would stay in the same company for 30-40 years, without learning what is going on out there.

at 4/1/2008 1:20:03 PM, Motor City said:
The "Best and the Brightest" is right here at home in good old American. Many of them are educated and just need opportunty. That's the stuff corporate American don't share with lots of it citizens that don't look like them. Now to keep from hiring the Americans that do and don't look like you for a fair wage, you run to H-1B claiming that you can't find the talent. That's BULL!

at 4/1/2008 1:37:30 PM, Meredith Poor said:
There are a lot of attorneys that make squat. Everyone must be talking about the corporate and PI types that do serious research and tell tear-jerker stories to juries. There are plenty of attorneys that figured a law degree is some sort of ticket and money comes automatically. Yeah right.

at 4/1/2008 2:36:01 PM, H1BRecipient said:
"at 3/31/2008 3:38:38 PM, SS said: Couple of clarifications. H1B professionals have to be paid a prevailing wage. This is the rule and its a prerequisite for getting labor certification. So I don''''t understand how H1B professionals can be called cheap labor?" It is very simple! Say company has to pay minimum 60K for engineering position . This is the only limitation without any detail about experience. Company hires experience engineer from Russia or China with 15 years of experience and will pay him 60K/ The same 15 years experienced American engineer would ask 100K. Simply paying required minimum for highly experienced worker companies get all for nothing. I know this because I was this experienced engineer with 60K salary, while my Americans colleagues made120K for the same job. I did not know this then. But I feel terrible now knowing that people like me pressed salaries and squeezed them from the jobs. Now somebody takes my job. H1 visas like drugs - when you start you need more and more till death

at 4/1/2008 2:44:39 PM, Tee said:
I was hired for $53K in my first job!!!! I had a master's degree and 16 publications and several patent applications. It was during the tech burst and there were not many jobs...so I took the offer to maintain my visa. My colleagues were paid upwards of 90K for the same job. So the idea of prevailing wage does not work....the companies always pays the minimum prevailing wage to scrape through the bureaucracy. I took me 5 years and job change to up my salary to market standard. I know I have lost a lot due to poor regulation and corporate scams on regular people.

at 4/1/2008 5:00:04 PM, SJ said:
The law of supply and demand is an economic law - not a legislated one; Adding to the pool of workers does drive the wage down... That is economics at its simplest. When the supply goes up, cost goes down. There is also no argument that H-1Bs are paid less generally, that they drive wages down for all of us, and that laws only mean something when enforced. Attorneys are being retained spepcifically to get around the laws... and to help create the impression of fair play. Finally... the process for greencards forces indentured servitude. Being poorly informed going into a major election borders on criminal. If you are in HR or if you are backing up employers on this pitch... you need to understand the truth. To think that subsidizing additional workers has no effect - that it is just "all good" - is gullibility in the extreme. Wake up and smell the coffee.... The intent of the law is not the same as what you are being told. And the reality is destroying peoples lives. If you can't separate the lies... you are part of the problem.

at 4/1/2008 5:15:00 PM, SJ said:
Also... the implication that anyone who speaks ill of employers is simply out-of-date and making excuses for their career has simply not been tagged yet. I was on the board of two professional organizations; I outran my coworkers on training hours, usually on my own time and expense, at a rate of 4 to 1. I spill knowledge, innovation, and value right and left.(humility also) I have specifically been told that I am underpaid... meanwhile H-1Bs collect all around me. In the high tech area I just left.. the market is down approximately 20-25% and the pay is also. The amount of work has not gone down... it has gone elsewhere. The internet crash did highlight a lot of problems... there was an influx of questionable tech talent and questionable business practice. When the smoke cleared, the bean counters started cost-cutting and said we can hire "programmers" anywhere... because no one has defined engineer and programming productivity well. We do need to take our careers seriously... and our elected leaders need to quit sucking up to corporate money. The H-1B issue is not a Red Herring.

at 4/1/2008 8:12:39 PM, Univ Research EE said:
Most master''s and Ph.D students are from China and India. The best students from these countries get to come to the USA to study. Our taxes provide billions of research dollars to give them fellowships and grants to work on US government funded research. That funding keeps our universities going. Then we make it hard for these new engineers to get green cards to work and stay in the USA. They go home, take their education with them and compete for USA jobs, so we encourage outsourcing to USA trained people. Gates did not say it right, but he was on the right track. We need to extend the H1-Bs to the foreign students that graduate from USA universities first, and then if the cap is not reached, we can allow others. If these new engineers can find jobs to stay in the USA, they don''t have to take low pay and the overall salary is higher. Our H1-B program is in desperate need of reform.

at 4/1/2008 8:19:23 PM, Univ Research EE said:
The H1-B program needs reform. Our universities need the best students from the world. Our taxes support them and the university/government research. We pay them, we educate them and we support them. I know. I work here. We should require them to spend 5 years working in the USA, and perhaps a guaranteed green card at that time. We should make it hard for them to return home and take our jobs offshore. If they don't have to take low salaries to stay in the US, all engineers will benefit.

at 4/1/2008 8:54:12 PM, More doctors and nurses said:
If we really want the best and brightest in the world, why not import an extra 100000 or 200000 doctors and nurses a year. We definitely have a shortage here, but no way the medical profession allows that no matter what they score on the Board exams...they will only allow a hand full a year compared to engineers

at 4/2/2008 10:43:43 AM, Zaheer said:
WITH DUE APOLOGIES !! “As a matter of fact” apart from all this philosophy what you folks are talking about I don’t know why historically: The people already in USA don’t want/like other world people to come in and work and spend their life at a better place peacefully. While: Back in history they or their ancestors came from outside US to do the same what these H1Bs are striving for. Can we be global citizens of this world with these mental barriers and differences and in mind? Zaheer

at 4/2/2008 11:48:23 AM, SemiMike said:
Barn door has been open since the 1950's for foreign engineers to come to US and work in chip biz. It enriched this country to have them here, and challenged our colleges to upgrade to European standards in early years. However, US high school students have grown up in the "Sports Culture" and want quick wins, not tough classes. I am not sure we can close this barn door and really get more US Eng students, even if pay goes up. Parents are subsidizing them to be lazy, just like oil subsidies in Texas....

at 4/2/2008 11:57:21 AM, Jay D said:
Incoming H1B visa holders often stay in the USA and contribute to our tax base. They buy our stuff (homes, cars etc.) They start companies (a large number of companies in Silicon Valley were founded by engineers who came in on H1B visas). We essentially get these people who were educated for "free" by other countries. If we restrict H1B visas, the work will flow out, taking with it all the taxes all the contributions to our consumer spending. A shortage of doctors doesn't immediately create a flow of "work" to other countries - although Medical Tourism is increasing. The key is to make sure these engineers are getting paid the market wages. The Labor Certification process is supposed to take care of this, but has loop holes. THis will make it fair for all engineers (U.S. and foreign born). Regards Jay

at 4/2/2008 12:46:46 PM, Siva said:
I agree somewhat with 3/31/2008 3:16:37 PM, Samba said: Many IT consultants are grabbing these visas on the first day and abusing them. In Edison, NJ there are many H1B victims working in restaurants and gas stations. They arrived here on freud employment offers. Sadly the victims do not come forward. There should be tough regulation on these freud consultants. I guess USCIS have no clue on the type of freud involved, ranging from fake certificates to tax gouging.

at 4/2/2008 12:59:59 PM, Carlos said:
It is a shame to read most of the comments...prevails the lack of knowledge on the subject. Being an H-1B visa holder gives me some more knowledge. So, with all due respect, for the ones who talk about cheap labor, the wage I receive is competitive with the one of my fellow american colleagues. In fact, I receive less money not because of cheap wages, but because I have more expenses, due to lawyers, and related fees. I agree, there is lack of talent in the US, but is it our fault of the foreigners? I just know that it is not our fault. While most americans complains about being "invaded" by foreign aliens, and losing jobs to H-1B visa holders; we on the other hand, strive to get accepted into society, strive to get a car, strive to open a bank account and still we don't complain and give out talent to you, the american companies and corporations who benefit from our knowledge. It is really sad to read theses comments when a considerable percetange of the american population never leaves the country, sometimes not even their own home state!! I understand the problem of the illegal aliens and agree that something needs to be done. But us, who are here legally I think we deserve some respect. After all,you americans need us to keep your life style going, your nice cars, your HDTV's, the fancy medical equipment that saves lives, etc... Regards Carlos

at 4/2/2008 1:55:15 PM, Greg said:
I favor a managed system of allowing top engineering talent to work in the US. However, the current process obviously has problems. I suggest that an H-1B visa is too cheap, based on the current supply and demand. If a company is effectively using its engineering talent, the value to the company still exceeds a much higher cost, and they will only request a visa for which they are convinced they have several years of meaningful work. Some possible ideas: 1) auction the available visas, 2) price them at 3-5X the annual engineering salary, making it bad business to buy a visa for "routine" engineering jobs or for short-term needs, 3) take the visa "profits" and support US engineering education (eg, tuition grants for citizens). Finally, I would like to see citizenship an attainable goal for this top talent.

at 4/3/2008 12:46:47 AM, Brennan said:
I think there are perhaps more pernicious effects to limiting H1B's. And ust to put it upfront, I would galdly welcome (as an engineer) quintupling the H1B program, and extending it to all fields (medicine particularly). The H1B program creates a really poor management culture. The H1B holders are trapped--unable to switch jobs, working for very poor managers--who hold a tremendous weight over the heads of their engineers. The lack of portability, and the green card process, create a system ripe for abuse. I have seen very good people (Korean, Chinese, Indian) in terrible employment situations, with no way out. This creates a wokr environment that is unpleasant. Management by whip, genreally, and a peer environment that is hard working, but not generally friendly. The managers, likewise, never learn to solve problems, and are fundamentally unable to _manage_ in a long term sense. This is a pernicous defect. So, I would much prefer an extension of the H1Bs. Failing that, make them portable--that will at least cure the worst abusers, and have a beneficial effect. Lack of job and green card portability is a huge defect in the system.

at 4/4/2008 6:05:24 PM, Dr. Gene Nelson said:
The H-1B Visa program is an incredibly corrupt employer-designed program to facilitate employment age discrimination. That means even former H-1Bs who become citizens face the axe, just like native born technical professionals. As far as the national security angle goes, the use of the H-1B program for intellectual property theft to developing countries is well documented. The latest perpetrator (April 2, 2008) is Hanjuan Jin, who was apprehended with a treasure trove of intellectual property when she attempted a one-way flight to China. Hanjuan received her Master's at Illinois Institute of Technology and was likely a H-1B before getting her green card. For more on the corruption, please review the PDF version of my January, 2008 article, "The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit". I think you'll see why I use the term "Abramoff Visa" for this awful program. I believe that the program should be terminated, just like all of the other work visa programs that have been procured by special interests in the name of inexpensive, docile labor. EDN readers may use the free citizen activism tools at NumbersUSA.com to press for needed reforms.

at 4/4/2008 10:16:39 PM, BaltoPolytechEngineer said:
I just read the main article and all 70+ posts preceding this one from me. Before presenting my original thoughts, I would like to declare these the 4 best ideas for H1-B reform, from the previous 70+ posts: 1) at 3/31/2008 2:44:01 PM, Brian astutely pointed out, "Long term solutions such as nuturing home grown talent are needed" and "engineers are much more vital than lawyers". ((B. Obama has stated this as well.)) 2) at 3/31/2008 3:20:55 PM, KM said "If H-1B visas are such an important part of our free market economy, why not auction them and make sure they go where they are of the most value?" 3) at 4/1/2008 8:12:39 PM, Univ Research EE declared, "We need to extend the H1-Bs to the foreign students that graduate from USA universities first." ((I would add that such individuals should not be tied to any one company.)) 4) at 4/2/2008 1:55:15 PM, Greg said us the visa auction profits to support US engineering education. Now for my original input on this topic. I would add that US engineering education needs more than just money. It needs great TEACHERS like the ones I had at the Baltimore Polytechnic Institute, www.bpi.edu (have a look at what this engrg prep (public!) school has been doing ... for 100+ years. Let''s grant citizenship to sooner to those foreign-born engineering PhDs (with good English communications skills) who agree to split 50/50 their 6 years with H1-B between working (3yrs) and teaching (3yrs) in a US middle or high school! Comments?

at 4/5/2008 11:16:17 PM, American said:
A crock. I spent 10 years teaching you idiots how to do your job. "What's a floppy?" "Reboooooot? Yes?" "United Ailines. "There will be a $30.00 personal service charge for us to screw up your flights." Finally I got a american guy who striatened it all out. Don't worry about terrorist. They are already here. They came on H-1B visas and are purchasing the weapons, plans, and stewlaing the needed information to kill this government from their U.S salaries. Wait 5 years and tell me I'm wrong.

at 4/7/2008 11:48:11 AM, experiencedBUTunemployed said:
I just read the article "High-Tech Industry Added 91,000 Jobs in 2007" including the 65,000 H-1B recipients that left 26,000 for US residents. Why is the industry not using all experienced high-tech workers laid-off in recent years who end up unemployed or, worse, underemployed? A: $$$ for those fat bonuses and options for star CEOs and his (a few her) golf buddies.

at 5/17/2008 9:29:09 AM, adam said:
actually think about that; it is relay not bad that nobody studies engineering in the US --except the foreignness of course, they are a but more intelligent--so sooner or later we will not have American engineers. The next step the foreigners will leave since they will get sooner or later that same money at home in China or in India and they will be treated better at home. So the whole problem of the US is solved; expensive production is gone, expensive engineering is gone, all what we have left over the lobbyists Don't you think that is a perfect solution

at 6/20/2008 2:41:26 PM, Patterson said:
Facts: Lawyers make more money than Engineers. US law is not taught overseas. Therefore no global competition for lawyers. You can take the bar exam for a license directly out of college. Unlike engineers who need two years internship and four recommendations to take the license exam. Therefore easier to become a licensed lawyer. Industry constantly tries to get more H-1b engineers allowed into the country. This is not going to change. Licensing for engineers is getting pressure to be harder by requiring a masters degree. Why buck the trend? Go with the flow. Be a lawyer its easier and pays more! Business will not change, government will not change, so its up to you to change careers! Don''t like law? Fix cars. A Prius is complex and the mechanics make as much as an engineer. Own your own auto shop. You worked hard be an engineer so apply that to running your own business. Look at the people running your local independent auto repair shop. You''re smarter than them so go open your own shop. Then you can leave something for your kids. Look at Orange County Choppers. A family owned enterprise. Makes a lot of money.

at 8/29/2008 11:09:06 AM, more of the same said:
I just ran acroos this. Boy, is this lady full of crap! As she says, she's NOT an engineer, just another journatist; she doesn't really know what things are like at our level. She dismisses all the points made here to be overridden by national security and defending against terrorism. Yet, for those very reason, the US should be actively promoting the growth of engineering as a profession worthy of attracting young Americans, NOT depending on H1B foreigners! Just look at the BLS statistics, lady; there is NO shortage of US engineers, just young, CHEAP US engineers. Like so many others, you're just promoting industry propaganda.

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