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Wednesday, April 9, 2008

H-1B visa cap (and readers’ limits) reached

Apr 9 2008 11:27AM | Permalink |Comments (41) |

US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) announced Tuesday that it has received enough H-1B petitions to meet the congressionally mandated cap for fiscal year 2009.

And given the more than 70 comments posted to EDN’s recent blog “Wanted or not, H-1B visa process starts on April 1,” it’s safe to say that our readers have reached their limits when it comes to H-1Bs. It’s a rare occurrence when our EE-based audience chimes in so heavily on a topic, especially in our non-tech news blog Now Hear This!. In fact out of the total 83 Now Hear This! entries, only one other post has garnered more comments (see “EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests”).

Here are the facts from the USCIS this week:

The agency, a division of the Department of Homeland Security, by the way, allowed H-1B petitions to be filed for five business days starting on April 1. USCIS has not stated when the number of petition put forward met its 2009 H-1B visa cap of 65,000 during the submission period.
In addition, USCIS said it also received more than 20,000 H-1B petitions filed on behalf of persons exempt from the cap under the “advanced degree” exemption. The agency will conduct the selection process on these petitions first and said that all such petitions not chosen will be part of the random selection process for the 65,000 limit. (EDN’s translation: In addition to competing for H-1B visas within the already large pool of petitions filed for the 65,000 slots, overflow from the advanced degree exemption will be poured in, making the odds of an H-1B petition being selected that much slimmer.)
As it always does, USCIS will carry out a computer-generated random selection process for all cap-subject petitions received. The agency said that, because of the “high number” of petitions received, it is not yet able to announce the precise day on which it will conduct the random selection process. Before running the random selection process, USCIS said it will complete initial data entry for all filings received during the filing period ending on April 7.
Finally, the USCIS said it will reject and return filing fees for all cap-subject petitions not randomly selected, unless found to be a duplicate. USCIS will handle duplicate filings in accordance with the interim final rule published on March 24 in the Federal Register.

More or less, the competition for these visas has become fierce and so has the argument on them. While many of our blog readers feel the artificial caps are “ridiculous” and should be removed, many still feel the caps should be upheld and reduced. Some comments suggest that foreign workers should not be allowed to compete for United States jobs at all and that there is no shortage of homegrown talent.

Interestingly, many of our readers boiled this issue down to one of supply and demand, suggesting that here in the US we already have too many EEs to keep salaries and employment high.

Reader Peter J. Merkin on April 1 said: “Lets face it, engineers are a commodity. If there truly was a ‘shortage,’ wages would rise and companies would not dump them when they turn 50. When the CEO of Bear Stearns get $380 million of taxpayer money on the way out the door after corkscrewing his company into the ground, we are lectured to by the MBA's the ‘Well, you have to pay for talent.’ If engineers are needed, companies will ‘pay for talent.’ Until then, the only occupations with a future are: business (MBA), medicine, or law.”

“Engineers at my company get treated like line workers, but we put in many more hours/day. As long as H-1B visas continue to get extended, wages will remain low, respect low, and fewer will look to the field of engineering for a career. I agree we're in a global economy and diversification is good, but there needs to be a firm limit,” a reader who identified himself as Tom said on March 31.

Also on March 31, reader Bill99 commented: “It is not a shortage of engineering talent in this country. It is that there is a shortage of talent that talent so desperate that they will work for the slave labor that the wealthy are willing to pay. To top things off, if we do not get the influx of desperate foreign engineers, those companies will outsource the jobs even if means compromising national security by allowing our technology and tax base to go abroad. They seem willing to risk our very economic structure for their greed. The wealthy never seem to realize that the future of our nation is at risk when they participate in the race to the bottom salary. Henry Ford paid his employees a salary that allowed them to afford to buy his product. Our MBAs seem to have forgotten that.”

The argument has been raging on for more than a week now in our original blog post. Bravo to all of our readers who have voiced their opinions on this very important topic. Congress and the USCIS may not be listening, but your peers certainly are. And your comments continue to be welcomed. Share your thoughts on the USCIS’ update on H-1Bs this week or the overall engineer employment situation below.

--Suzanne Deffree, Managing Editor, News

Reader Comments

at 4/9/2008 12:18:27 PM, Meredith Poor said:
If someone has a need, and someone else can fill it, they should be allowed in. I've worked with (East) Indians in a number of capacities and found they're neither better or worse than Americans. Pay in India and China is rising fast, and will come into equlibrium with Western wages. The proliferation of equipment and infrastructure is certainly raising demand for talent. The demand side is taking care of itself.

at 4/9/2008 1:55:01 PM, Tedd said:
The economic problems that lead to the supposed need for the H1-B visa program will not end until Congress extricates itself from the interests of the large corporations. Capitalism is great, but only so long as there is true separation between the govt. and corporate America. And the justification for the collusion is always in the name of "economic prosperity". If we do not wake up and demand that our legislators disengage from economic manipulation then someday in the not-too-distant future the big corporations will be running the government. Think I'm kidding? Read Battlefield Earth. It may be a sc-fi novel but the factors leading that way are already starting to happen, especially with big businesses getting priority over the people's interest in the Congress and White House. Look at the Bear Stearns deal, there is NO precedent for that and it was a dangerous move that will justify further Fed intervention. Anything to prop up the hyper-inflated house of cards we call the American economy.

at 4/9/2008 2:03:40 PM, Bill Grayson said:
I agree... if there is a need... let'em in. I love working with folks from around the world. I am currently working with Engineers from India, Poland, Russia, China (Taiwan), and Scotland. We have a lot to teach eachother . I just get angry and frustrated when these companies complain that there is a shortage one day and lay-off the next. A recent posting of a position garnered over 300 resumes.

at 4/9/2008 2:25:42 PM, Bill P said:
Visa applications should not be handled by the Dept of state but rather by the unemployment office. Company hiring manager would call the office and ask for an engineer/gardener/programmer/cook whatever and the office would send over the appropriate resumes. When there are NO americans available for that job, then they would issue a visa.

In times of strong economy, lots of visas would be issued, in times of weak economy, much much fewer.

The visa for an immigrant wishing to move to the US and become an American would be different than the one for a temporary guest worker looking for experience or to fill a temporary position.

at 4/9/2008 2:31:01 PM, BillyBob said:
Let's face if folks, we're $crewed. The system is such that it pays to outsource. If it didn't they wouldn't be doing it. Until the system is fixed we're done for. Companies that want to hire only Americans are at a economic disadvantage. To level the field, we should tax the source of IP. If the IP was not generated in the States by US Citizens, then the tax should be high enough to discourage hiring no citizens or outsourcing the design.

If we don't draw the line soon, we'll be back to the days of Henry Ford when workers worked 14 hrs a day to scrape by. We'll be working for food soon in this country.

The politicians are in the hands of big corporations due to the relaxed campaigned financing loopholes and the revolving door between industry and government. We must impeach any politician who works against the interest of the working class. Making Lobbying illegal. No donations over $100 from a single person. No slush funds from party coffers. End the two party system.

VOTE NADER

at 4/9/2008 2:32:52 PM, Cadfael said:
Let''s face it.
There are four kinds of engineers. Talentless Americans, Talented Americans, Talented Foreigners, and Superstars.
The Superstars are going to be hired wherever they are and the economy they are a part of will gain by it. We want as many of them as possible here. Limiting visas for foreign Superstars makes no sense. The Talented foreigners compete with the Talented Americans. As much as possible, we want those jobs filled by Talented Americans, and should only let in enough Talented Foreigners to fill the jobs the Talented Americans can''t. A sensible way to limit this would be to force companies to pay a little more for the foreign talent, making the local talent more desirable. In short, a tariff makes more sense than a cap. Forcing companies to use the talentless Americans is asking them to move elsewhere.

at 4/9/2008 2:36:36 PM, Andrew said:
If companies can't bring skilled engineers into the United States, they will end up employing them in foreign offices. Then those salaries just go to improving the quality of life in those foreign coutnries. Most companies are already doing this because of the percieved lower cost. The US does not produce enough high quality design engineers to meet our demand. Companies can't simply lower standards and higher less qualified US citizen wokers. The jobs just move to where the workers can be found. I would rather their salaries were earned and spent in the US. The root problem really needs to be addressed. Our cultures negative portrail of engineers and scientists and glorification of entertainers and MBA's doesn't encourage a new generation of engineers. The abysmal state of math and science education is probably just a symptom of the problem.

at 4/9/2008 2:47:44 PM, Edmundo Gerardo said:
H1B are abused by asian companies to promote "legal" emigration to the United States, the way it works is this: they open a "maquiladora" in Mexico, and instead of living in Mexico their employees live in the States, after 5 years they are eligible for a greencard

at 4/9/2008 2:48:26 PM, Edmundo Gerardo said:
H1B are abused by asian companies to promote "legal" emigration to the United States, the way it works is this: they open a "maquiladora" in Mexico, and instead of living in Mexico their employees live in the States, after 5 years they are eligible for a greencard

at 4/9/2008 2:53:34 PM, M said:

I agree that is a supply and demand. The real question is, do we want this to be a closed loop or open loop system. If this is an open loop system, then our salaries will not equalize to our value to the company, since there will be an endless stream of cheaper laborers. Just because some engineers in the far east works at lower wages (due to lower cost of living), we should be paid the same. Do we, in the USA need to live in hut with a thatched roof and dirt floors to stay competitive. No. Why do we have attitudes that non US citizens have rights to US jobs? Balance cannot be achieved as long as there is cheap labor willing to relocate to the USA and we give companies means to import them. Companies with outrageously paid Executives should reap what they have sown. It is time for them to feel the pain and have the system self correct but as long as the system is open loop, this cannot happen.

Sure, I work with many great engineers from many different countries who work hard and pay taxes. Many of them are my friends but I would not want them to replace US citizens. The alarming question is why my fellow US citizens seem to prefer foreigners over their our own citizens. What about America for Americans? Majority of the companies will say there are not enough engineers. I liken this to a story I heard on PBS, if you ask you wife to buy green tomatoes and they have none for sale, she will tell you they have no tomatoes. Likewise, corporations will say there is a shortage of engineering talent, but what they are really saying there is a shortage for the wages, benefits and job security being offered.

at 4/9/2008 2:55:33 PM, Bob said:
Having been a holder of such a Visa a while ago, agree it’s a good idea to bring in talent when you need it. However a quota based system is looking at it as an immigration ‘thing’. It should be about filling a need for a certain talent, and only if it can’t be filled locally.
Mixing engineering skills from around the world can result in different approaches a ‘Hybrid vigour if you like for engineering.
After the Visa didn’t stay in US,now employ a couple of US engineers here, so it works both ways!

at 4/9/2008 3:05:42 PM, visas said:
Simply said, all my children are encouraged academically to be in science fields which are useful in the pharmaceutical industry since fields other than medicine or law can be easily sent to lower paying countries.

at 4/9/2008 3:09:11 PM, muscle labor vs. brain labor said:
Let's not forget that the United States has allowed millions of people into the US that provide 'muscle' labor when there are plenty of Americans for this kind of work. America should be allowing a million new scientists/engineers into the United States from other countries in order to help drain those countries' best people from them.

at 4/9/2008 3:11:29 PM, Congress is slow said:
If Mexico had a glut of highly skilled engineers/scientists coming to the US would they be allowed to stay like the people with 'muscle labor' skills? Probably, they would

at 4/9/2008 3:31:24 PM, BillyBob said:
I guess I'm one of those talentless American (foreign-born) engineers who's getting $crewed from both ends. Because I look like an H1B, my fellow Americans treat me like a foreigner and my old countrymen are lined up to take my job for salaries that no American can live on. The problem is not the people, I have nothing against competition. I'll put my talentless skills up against anyone (former president Eta Kappa Nu), but the system is biased in favor of abusive employers. The job of government is to protect it's citizens from unfair competition. Putting an R&D tax on products NOT DESIGNED in the home country will help balance the system. It will work for Europe as well as America. After all companies can hire from anywhere, but workers are stuck in their own countries. Let's keep the work local.

at 4/9/2008 3:32:09 PM, George Bush said:
What is an American Job anyway ?

Who decided that tech. jobs were a birthright of American Engineers and only American Engineers ?

Should only Large corporations be allowed the enjoy the profits from labor cost arbitrage ?

The Xenophobia and subliminal racism displayed by most of the Americans who post on h1b news items and blogs is just disgusting.

For years and years America and Americans enjoyed the benefits of free trade and globalization, sometimes to the detriment of worker populations in third world countries. At that time, American governments never tired of assuring us third world nations that free trade would benefit all "in the long run".

Now, at the first real competition that their workforces faced, when for the first time people from a third world country chose to educate themselves and compete with Americans and others for jobs, services and trade - we hear a crescendo of racist and xenophobic criticism !

Yes, I am on an H1B in the US, and here is what I am going to do about this.
1) I will never buy American. Free trade is just a sham pushed by Americans to fool other nations out of their money.
2) I will never ever hire an American engineer. They are all racists and xenophobic whiners.
3) If in my company I am at a position where I decide where new jobs are going to be created, I will never push an American location, I will always push my home country.

You whiners, remember, when more foreign born engineers start thinking like I do, that you brought this upon yourself.

at 4/9/2008 4:01:57 PM, american said:
Unemployed and low-paid engineers don’t have money to hire lobbyists in the Capitol Hill, but the large corporations do.

at 4/9/2008 4:39:37 PM, rc said:
Since salaries are guided by demand/supply, the visas should be granted more to those getting higher salaries. This would ensure that only very skilled people work here and better American economy rather than some other country''s. This would also stop companies to just run after any cheap engineer, but really get the superstars. For most jobs the locals should fill up the positions first.

at 4/9/2008 4:58:21 PM, Bob said:
M <Why do we have attitudes that non US citizens have rights to US jobs>
They don''t the H1''s are for the benfit of the US, its the quota system that makes it seem that way. A Visa should be based on need and need alone. The best engineers are not always US citzens - it was the German rocket engineeer''s who helped the USA put a man on the moon!
:)

at 4/9/2008 5:07:46 PM, true american said:
Our company continues to advertise after over a year to hire a senior power electronics engineer to support major in-house programs. We have not received qualified responses to the ad. Our option of last resort is to review the H1-B applicants. Does anyone have an alternative to this approach.

at 4/9/2008 5:14:21 PM, Stever said:
H1B workers are essentially indentured servants and are kicked out of the country if they lose their job. How can a U.S. worker compete with someone who has that kind of incentive to delight his boss? If the MBAs had to compete with people like that they would not be earning multi-millions of dollars per year. There are plenty of aliens who would do a much better job of running our companies and would work for a lot less money.

at 4/9/2008 5:38:53 PM, joe said:

I am a H1B holder and received my EAD after 6 years working in US. As per the above thread from cadfield, I can say i am a superstar, I recently started looking for job and in a period of 2 months 6 employers wants to hire me. I think is that americans have an easy way of life and the foreign countries have struggled from their birth. Hard work is written in thier Blood and they will be SUPERSTARS

at 4/9/2008 5:45:29 PM, Brian said:
The arguments that I keep hearing is 1) If we refuse to allow H1Bs into the country then companies will just hire folks in other countries. 2) The counter argument is foreign workers just adds to the supply side and supresses wages.

My opinion is that capitalists being capitalists will inevitably move jobs over to low cost countries (excluding CEO positions, naturally). I figure, why is it in MY best interest to train my replacement? Maybe if we refuse ANY H1Bs then the job transfers will be impeded.

-Brian

at 4/9/2008 7:19:40 PM, RN said:
Bringing in smart people is not a bad idea, we understand that globalization is a two-way street and much of the wealth in US has come through access to global markets.

But assigning these visas by lottery is a terrible idea: you could the University of Phoenix guy beat out the MIT guy. There has to be some kind of scoring system or aptitude test to award them.

To stop some of these contract shops from undercutting wages, i would suggest a frequent review of H1b''s tax returns, if it is less than a decent limit, revoke visas (for the employer).

at 4/10/2008 12:48:57 AM, rb said:
What's really happening here is corporate America trying to dominate the world. They are trying to force us into one world government. This will not happen because this will lead to World Wars. All this uncertainly about folks here getting a job or being layed off is actually costing us much. The reason the dollar is shrinking is the government is printing too much money. Also there is more stress these days which lead to health problems and the drain on our health institutions. This reflects in the value of the dollar in the long run. The super rich are getting too rich because they seek being the most powerful man or woman on earth. May God help us all.

at 4/10/2008 12:58:36 AM, Virgilius said:
The correct way to solve the H1B visas is to enforce the same with politicians, including congresmens and even the president of the US.

at 4/10/2008 1:32:50 AM, Shan said:
You guys are born losers :) ..
Open your eyes and see around.
1.There are more L1 VISA (Indentured Labor) slaves than this H1. In lay man terms L1 is a guy who works on a Intra-company transfer meaning from india working at 1/3 of a H1 salary!!! When you guys are fighting over H1''s,companies are replacing them by L1.Don''t be surprised next time when you stop all H1''s altogether and still don''t find the ''American Engineer'' don''t get paid like Jr. Executives!!.
2.Get your grips engineering is the next manufacturing, move over learn finance, supervising, and like tat.
3. Don''t dream that Indian are minting money...they are educated lost generations who have no other place to work than these sweatshops like call centers and tech services.
4.The more you push down work standards in third world the more you get to see minor issues like pesticides in dolls and H1/L1 slaves.

And I''m one such poor soul permitted to sell my future cheap here in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, for need of dignity .

at 4/10/2008 1:57:39 PM, Frank said:
The current situation exists because the US government is fundamentally corrupt and in the pockets of global corporate whoremasters who don''t care about the long term interests or security of this country so much as the personal wealth and golden parachutes of its controlling management. Corporate god heads like Bill Gates, Craig Barrett and the likes maintain a deceptive, insidious propaganda campaign, as well as lobbying and political campaign sponsorships, about the ''shortage'' with Machevelian disregard to the effects of their efforts on the technical worforce of this country. These treasonous bastards, fo'' mo'', betta'' profit, are helping to build the world''s next Soviet Union: Communist China. God d**n them and their paid-off politicos!

at 4/10/2008 2:12:35 PM, Allen said:
I have H1s and L1s working for me, and they don't cost less - they cost more. Their base salary is the same as my domestic workers (over 6 figures) and I also have to pay the additional legal fees to get them into the US. The reason I go overseas for some of my talent is because most American engineers are stupid and have an entitlement attitude.

at 4/11/2008 9:45:27 AM, John said:
The H1B program is simply a way for corporations to bring in cheap foreign labor. The so-called "worker shortage" is a lie, just look through the classified ads in any newspapers. I am ecstatic that people have finally realized what a scam this program is.

at 4/11/2008 4:18:22 PM, Meredith Poor said:
Something I experience frequently is that I go into a customer site to provide database administration, only to discover the server is five years old, the disk hasen't ever been defragged, the drive is past 80% utilization (often almost at 95%), the service packs haven't been run, etc., etc. You wonder what this has to do with foreign workers: it's a job that has to be done and it's ignored. The employer is often suffering reduced productivity to the point where the cost of employing a a server administrator would be trivial. The administrator isn't hired because the people running the company don't know how to tell whether someone is qualified or not, and don't have the time to mess with it, problem or not. A company like this is in no position to file an H1B petition: such a path is complicated and, as noted elsewhere, involves a significant fee. The problem at this point is enough of these sores are getting to be close to fatal that the existing body of IT resources will be overwhelmed... if that hasn't already happened. 65,000 workers x 5 years is 300,000 ferriners. The number of servers installed in the US is probably around 15 million.

at 4/16/2008 1:02:46 PM, Hank said:
We should distinguish US graduate H1Bs from others. It makes no sense for a strong international student to come to the US, receive a graduate degree, and then get forced home. Since nearly all the top foreign-born engineers working in the US received their graduate education in the US, we should simply expand the US graduate quota (or eliminate it), and shrink the non-US-graduate quota.

at 4/23/2008 11:19:34 AM, George said:
One thing that sucks in US is the Govt doest like the companies to Outsource the companies to the other countries like india and china and planning to impose laws for outsourcing and they dont even raise the H-1B cap to allow more talented workers those who cannot find here and how does they expect the country''s economy to Grow? if there are no people to work for appropriate positions companies cannot grow
thats what happening with my company too...One last thing, these people are dissapointing business school students who are responsible for growing companies and managing people.

at 5/13/2008 9:22:02 AM, Jason said:
There is no shortage of engineers. There is a shortage of $15/hr engineers. H1B''''s and the ilk solve this problem at the cost of destroying US infastructure. It''''s the old story of short term gain. My children better learn to flip burgers... It''''s a new world.

at 5/17/2008 9:19:19 AM, adam mickievitch said:
"“Engineers at my company get treated like line workers, but we put in many more hours/day. As long as H-1B visas continue to get extended, wages will remain low, respect low, and fewer will look to the field of engineering for a career. I agree we're in a global economy and diversification is good, but there needs to be a firm limit,” a reader who identified himself as Tom said on March 31." well I have a different opinion if we get paid and treated like we would be in India, we should get food and housing and the rest for the same many like we would live in India. I meant we should make the glottalization perfect!

at 6/20/2008 3:03:40 PM, Patterson said:
65,000 H-1B engineers per year. Who is hiring these? There should be a website with the names of the companies hiring all these H-1Bs listed in order by total number. Then let the marketplace decide whether to boycott these companies or not. After all in a truly free marketplace you should have total access to information to make your buying decision.

at 7/9/2008 3:00:25 AM, vijay pats said:
i want to know about the latest news of h1 visa because i have applied for h1 visa in april 2008 and my consltant is saying to wait so how can i come to know about the decession taken by the uscic if there is a latest news about the h1 visa pls let me know about it in my e-mail id vijaypats@yahoo.com

at 9/10/2008 1:16:45 PM, AD said:
If more americans couldve studied rather than partying during their education, US companies wouldnt have had to look for educated workers outside the country. It is as simple as that.

at 9/23/2008 12:22:13 PM, shaltot said:
To Patterson: The number of 65,000 is the allowed total H1-B applicants covering every technical and non-technical job field out there, not just engineering like you think!

at 10/22/2008 5:51:01 AM, desilva said:
I was granted a H1B approval while I was in the US with my family as the expenses to travel up and down is high I came to my country to have it stamped the vise consulate has sent it for further review and canceled my multiple entry to the US what do I do

needra@live.com

at 1/14/2009 3:29:22 PM, BobURUncle said:
There's no shortage of engineers -- there's a shortage of good managers. American Managers have gotten lazy. Instead of coaching and developing young engineers, they'd rather just hire a foreigner to whip. Outsourcing is nothing more than the ultimate solution to the BLAME GAME. If you hire an American, he has rights, he can sue. Hire a foreigner and he'll take all the crap you can dish out at him and smile while taking it too.

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