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In England, solar power makes little sense

September 4, 2008

The British newspaper The Independent has an article pointing out that solar power installations have a 100 year payback up there, and some may never pay out. I guess all that I have been trying to say with my blogs about solar power is that energy production and distribution is an analog problem, just like any other real-world problem. As I have pointed out, installing 5 dollar-a-watt panels to try and pay down electricity that costs you 13 cents a kilowatt-hour is a fool’s errand. As I have also pointed out, if you use so much electricity you are getting charged 31 cents a kwh and you can install the panels yourself and maybe get the cost down below 3 dollars an installed watt, well, then things are much more sensible. I have friends working in solar powered startups who have told me of breakthroughs that will allow them to price the panels wherever they want since the cost will be under a dollar a watt. I hope that is true but since this startup uses copper indium gallium selenide technology you have to expect the cost of the materials to rise substantially if we all start paving our roofs with the stuff.

OK, so I have tried to counter some of the hype with economics, but the article from England shows another analog problem with the suitability of solar power. If you are at northern latitudes in a country with a lot of cloud cover, then that also changes the economics of solar. Hey, I am all for PV solar, it helps my friend and my town and my industry. But you have to have the intellectual honesty to appreciate the advice of the article that points out that in England, you would be better off putting in insulation with money you would have spent on solar.

It fascinates met that people with no appreciation of economics and the markets see everything as a crisis. What no news organization seems to be pointing out is that when oil went from 22 dollars a barrel to $120 a barrel, that opened up a lot of reserves that used to be uneconomical. Here is an article about a German plant that uses plentiful cheap coal and then sequesters the carbon dioxide. If you look at the energy needs of the country, and realize that we can’t pave every square meter with PV panels, then you see that coal and natural gas will be used to make most of our energy for several hundred years. There is no energy crisis but that headline does not sell papers. Just like with every other commodity like concrete and wood and cheese whiz, when demand went up, price went up and that is creating more supply. Indeed some of that supply will be done with solar and wind, but any rational energy policy has to respect the role of fossil fuels for a couple more centuries. And I won’t get all the greenies raving by mentioning nuclear power.

Posted by Paul Rako on September 4, 2008 | Comments (8)

November 4, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
John commented:

Hey there, there is an energy crisis. "then you see that coal and natural gas will be used to make most of our energy for several hundred years. There is no energy crisis" Hmm, we have hundreds of years left then?? No way. Do the maths. We do not have 100's of years left. For a growth of 6%/year we have at best 50 years of coal left. See this for more details: Go to YOU TUBE and look for:The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) This series of lectures explains what I am getting at. Best Regards, John


October 2, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
RickyDee commented:

I think you will all find the use of interior lighting with a solar collector and fibre optic very interesting. Systems are available now, the collector is controlled by GPS to follow the sun based on location. System uses standard florescent to balance light needed based on brightness setting, clouds, etc. Would seem to have great potential in sunny areas, large office buildings, big box stores, etc. Also, interesting reading on the amount of energy that could be saved if belts used to drive machinery and equipment from a motor were designed better. Huge potential. There are so many ways. I like the fact that those of you posting have taken the colateral energy usage into account when considering alternatives. It should be an interesting 20 year period in the energy field.


September 21, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
Wayne Morgan commented:

When you say "There is no way England can go totally green" are you suggesting, by intentionally not mentioning the rest of the United Kingdom, that Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland potentially could go totally green or are you just repeating the thoroughly annoying Anglo habit of referring to the entire Kingdom as England?


September 9, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
Show me the Math commented:

There is no way England can go totally green. There is a good article, unbiased, in the Register on Professor David J C MacKay who crunched the math to show why. www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/20/mackay_on_carbon_free_uk/


September 5, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
arclight commented:

Bluebear: You wrote: "$5 per watt means a $5,000 PV panel could produce 5 kWh every sunlight hour." If it's $5 per watt, doesn't that mean that the $5,000 panel will produce 1 KWH per sunlight hour, not 5 KWH? What does that do to your numbers?


September 4, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
DM commented:

If you capture all the CO2 from coal power plants in the US, you are talking about 50M barrels a day of liquid CO2, substantially greater than US oil production. So disposing of it has corresponding cost. The article sited above said that carbon capture could make coal plants more expensive than wind, and essentially there are no production plants today, just experiments. Having seen a lot of the FutureGen activity, it isn''t clear to me that coal with carbon capture can be cost-competitive with alternatives. And there is the obvious problem that there are lots of coal plants far from good ground injection sites, implying the need to greatly expand the US CO2 pipeline system. Coal with carbon capture shouldn''t be rejected, but we should recognize that it has some serious challenges.


September 4, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
Bluebear commented:

We should not takl down PV using biased arguments based on solving economic problems using an engineering frame of mind. An alternate choices analysis, i.e. compairing buying from the local company for 13 cents/kWh against installing PV panel for $5/watt, reports what economists call consumer surplus. The qucik math works out to be 4.4 years of continuous sunlight to generate the electricity to pay back the PV investment. 4.4 sunlight years may be 100 years in London: Bad investment? Not sure. Consumer surplus should not be the target of an ROI analysis. It is for the same logics that, e.g., beef being more expensive than chicken does not, by itself, makes it not profitable to produce beef. In economists? terms, we need to think of the producer surplus by considering the investment in terms of the opportunity cost of money. $5 per watt means a $5,000 PV panel could produce 5 kWh every sunlight hour. If the cost of money is 6%, and the price for each kWh is $.13, we would need $5000*0.06/365/(5*.13) = 1.26 sunlight hours average a day to break even on the operating cash flow. If the PV panels MTBF is 20 years, to go from operating to free cash flow we also need: $5000/20/365/(5*.13) = 1.05 of additional sunlight hours per day to pay back the cost of the PV. Hence, suppose PV is only a supplemental means, i.e. energy storage is not a factor as we can scale the purchase from the grid to our instantaneous demand levels, all we need is 1.26 + 1.05 = 2.31 hours of sunlight a day on average earn the present market?s rate of return with the subsidies and commodities inflation being on our favor. I am not sure about the UK, but based on Paul?s numbers, anywhere on earth that can see more than two hours of sunlight a day shoudl consider PV.


September 4, 2008
In response to: In England, solar power makes little sense
RobS commented:

That 5 dollars a watt doesn't sound too bad to the uninitiated...until you point out 13 cents per kilowatt hour. Quick! Someone buy this author an airplane ticket to Washington!

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