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Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?

March 1, 2010

By now everybody and their mother must have heard about Bloom Energy and their ceramic fuel cell gizmo. I heard about it last week as I hammered down a few beers, ahh, I mean, as I was doing some interdepartmental team-building with several engineers who work at various bay-area companies. They were a little skeptical, as engineers tend to be. We are the ones that have to implement the marketing fever dreams. That is never as easy as it sounds My pals pointed out the huge costs for the Bloom boxes, how it would take hundreds of thousands of dollars to run a house. They mentioned that the box takes a long time to warm up, so it could not just be switched on for a quick energy boost. Then they mentioned that the 800 degree operating temperature meant that it could not be that efficient, and one problems with that is once you did switch it on and got the whole mess up to operating temperature then you would sure want to use it as long as you could.

The Bloom box is a classic case of a scientific curiosity being pawned off as an engineering triumph. Science simply has to work. Engineering has to work and be cheaper than other things that work. There are existing companies doing fuel cells– one using osmotic membranes right here in Menlo Park. And there is even an Australian outfit that uses the ceramic cells.

It shows how much hype counts in today’s world– just get the useful idiots at 60 Minutes to cover it, and all of a sudden, you are the “next big thing”. Just in time for the company going public. And believe me, everything about this hype is related to the fact that this is a venture-funded startup that needs to do a “pump-and-dump”. They want to get the hype all crazy, so when they go public the stockholders are left with the minor detail about getting this thing to work and the VC run off with all the money.

It may be contempt for manufacturing engineers, or it may be wishful thinking, or it may be just profound incompetence, but management, especially financial and scientific management, never understands that getting to high-volume production is no small feat. Just look at NanoSolar, who has continually done all these grand pronouncements about their world-changing cigs solar panels, only to never really deliver them in volume at a cost that makes money. I have a pal in the solar industry startup and he says Nanosolar has poisoned the well for all the solar panel startups since they did so much hype for so long so many times with so little to back it up.

All these huckster visionaries that go into energy “revolutions” lack any appreciation for high-volume manufacturing. One of the million problems that caused my buddy’s solar company to suffer was that the slitting shear that cut the panel would get all the cigs goo on it and that would run the edge of the panel. It may sound stupid to you because it is such an easy-to-understand problem, not like bandgap physics or phonon conversions. But believe me, those easy-to-understand problems keep you from selling panels just the same, something all the scientists have absolutely no respect for. They think that any idiot should be able to make their brilliant idea come to fruition but it is just the opposite. There are a million things that work great in the lab but don’t pan out in high-volume manufacturing. Like my mechanical engineer buddy told a founder of one of the failed startups I have worked at—“Sure it is an easy thing to fix, but it is one easy thing after another easy thing after a thousand other easy things, and then five years has past.”

One “easy thing” I am familiar with is plastic cars. Now I think that Amory Lovins is right on the mark when he tells us to conserve and use our resources wisely. But he is a blithering idiot when he goes on national TV and tells a reporter that carbon fiber body panels will make cars more efficient and would be the savior of humanity if it weren’t for those big dumb old car companies. Sorry, I am a former auto engineer and we looked at plastic cars for, oh since the 1953 fiberglass Corvette. I was also pals with guys that worked on the Pontiac Fiero, a real plastic car fiasco. The primary problem with plastic body panels is cycle time. It takes way too long to hold them in the mold and let them cool off enough so you can open the mold and get it out (carefully) and then start the next mold cycle. One of the beautiful things about sheet metal is how fast you can make it—bang bang bang, out come hoods and fenders and rocker panels. Long cycle times means that you are tying up the capital expense of the entire machine waiting for the plastic to cool off. But even if plastic did not have a profound cycle-time penalty, there are dozens of other reasons why it does not make sense for high-volume automobiles.

  1. It is mostly made from oil. Duh, I thought that is what we are trying to save.
  2. It does not conduct electricity, so you have to add ground wires and do all kinds of added cost to prevent EMI and RFI.
  3. It disintegrates on impact, killing the drivers. Just ask the family of Anton Senna the Formula 1 one driver killed by “second impact”. Once the first impact crash turns the entire body of the car into a fiber bag, there is no structure left to protect the occupants.
  4. Carbon, kevlar and aramid fiber are very expensive.
  5. It is hard to paint plastic.
  6. It is hard to repair plastic
  7. It is hard to attach any fixture points to plastic, or it costs a fortune to mold in nuts and attachment points.
  8. Plastic is not dimensionally stable, that is why the Fiero was made in a giant fixture that machined plastic mounting pads so the body panels might align.
  9. The surface finish of plastic is far inferior to sheet metal, unless you spend a fortune to fill and sand it.
  10. All the oil and processing makes plastic a rather bad choice relative to the amount of juju CO2 that we have suddenly decided is a poison.
  11. The price of plastic follows the wild variations in oil prices, so there would have to be a spot price on the car you are selling
  12. Plastic molds cost more than sheet metal dies, they have cooling channels and slides and all kinds of other expensive features that cost way more than the average stamping die. So when you drag out the cycle time to let the plastic harden, you’re making idle a million-dollar press and a million-dollar mold.
  13. Since the carbon fiber or aramid panel is made with a thermoset epoxy and not a thermoplastic, you can’t grind up the scrap and re-use it, it is a pure loss, and you have to find a place to dump it.
  14. Handling, cleaning and storage of thermoset plastics are a major hassle.

No, sorry all you brainiacs, Henry Ford the 1st was right when he said “Plastic is for combs and toothbrushes”. Sheet metal is the ideal material for automobile bodies. Get used to it. Heck we have hardly adopted aluminum, that is how good modern steel auto bodies are.

Now certainly, there are a ton of brilliant things coming from startups. Google, eBay and Amazon come to mind. But remember how the Ginger was going to change the world? At least until we learned the Segway was a scooter that had inherent usage problems in the real world. When something is hyped as hard as the Bloom box I have to feel it is because the backers realize there is no real intrinsic immediate value and they are looking to get the next batch of suckers pulled in so they can bail out.

And when you see some VC-funded startup hype how their lab experiment is going to save the world, you need to take a quick course in snake-oil sales techniques. First watch a Youtube video of the Monorail Song from the Simpson’s. Then watch the movie Boiler Room, so you understand the tactics. Then watch American Psycho so you understand the soul of people willing to take your money and leave you with worthless paper (kind of like the Fed only less official).

Meanwhile, if you see an energy startup staffed with former engineers from GM and Kellogs and Dell who really understand high-volume manufacturing, well invest in that one, not one full of PhDs. I have never met a PhD that could comprehend the problems of high-volume manufacturing and configuration management and I don’t expect to in this lifetime.

[Sept, 2011: Critical update]: To understand sales-type hucksterism, I just found out about the movie Glengarry Glen Ross. You should watch this after Boiler Room and before American Psycho.

Posted by Paul Rako on March 1, 2010 | Comments (15)

April 14, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Sir Scamalot commented:

I ponied up my $700k (or is it $800k) but was unable to purchase a Bloom Box. Huh? That's right, it's just one big SCAM! Google, et. al. were given their boxes and they are subsidized by Bloom. Had I been able to buy a box, I would have taken the 10 minutes to do what Bloom, Google, et. al. have worked hard not to do--that's because it's a scam--put a meter on the gas input and a meter on the electricity output. Here Ms. 60 Minutes reporter, look at these two meters, Q.E.D. Oh, let's not overlook what could be my favorite part. Distributed electricity is touted as problematic and down right EVIL, but distributed natural gas, why don't look behind the curtain!


March 23, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Andy T commented:

@ investor Before we do the due diligence shootdown, I need to call my broker and take a short position on Bloom.


March 10, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Critical thinker commented:

My comment on Bloom is: "If it is not a scam, then why are they presenting it in the way scammers do?" My favorites (so far) are: 1) Rather than showcase a scientist touting their product, they use a politician (Collin Powell). 2) They omit that they dealed with eBay, Google, et al where Bloom gave them their devices and pay for their use. 3) They have $400 million but I found that they have not trademarked anything, BloomBox, Bloom Energy, nothing.


March 7, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
wave_man commented:

Educate yourselves on fuel cell energy, thermodynamics, and then make a decision about how efficient the technology can be. SOFC from natural gas has a theoretical efficiency (DC) of well over 60%. How close they or any of their very competent competitors come to this depends on how well they use the waste heat internally, or whether it is used for cogeneration.


March 3, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
esmifra commented:

I understand where you are going but i only saw a personalized view about marketing and not a single thing about the technology of bloom boxes. Except of course the first impressions of your engineer friends with a couple of beers. Don't get me wrong, i'm an engineer my self but i've long learned not to go with first impressions especially with technology, the problems we first think, might have been long solved...


March 3, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Emrah Unal commented:

"3 - It disintegrates on impact, killing the drivers. Just ask the family of Anton Senna the Formula 1 one driver killed by ?second impact?. Once the first impact crash turns the entire body of the car into a fiber bag, there is no structure left to protect the occupants." First he is "Ayrton Senna", second his death occured because his cars right front tire came off after the impact and hit him in the head causing fatal skull fractures, his body was fine. That secondary impact you were talking about was the car tyre. Ok this is a blog and not an article but keep Senna out of it, use another stupid example.


March 2, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
formula1 commented:

That's "Ayrton" Senna.


March 2, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
David commented:

Households around the US burn tremendous amounts of natural gas for heating. If this project results in a device that can use that same natural gas and generate heat and electricity for the homes at the same time, displacing the polluting coal currently burned for most electricity generation, it will be great! There is know way for anyone to know if this will happen or not, but if someone wants to make the investment/gamble on it I'm 100% in favor.


March 2, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
William Ketel commented:

I somehow missed all of the hype about the Bloom Box. Oh Well! The hydrocarbon powered fuel cell was published a while back, at least one of them. It runs on methyl alchohol, which is fairly cheap and easy to make, but sort of toxix and it does burn if ignited. So that thing has already been done. I have no idea if it became a real product, though. The part about how hard it is to go from an idea to a product is UNDERSTATED quite a bit. At least, for many things. The effort to make a producable design is large indeed, at least for some things. Even for something that is completely legitimate, making one is not too bad, but getting a good yield on enough of them to be a commercial product can take a huge effort, and then wind up not being able to do it with adequate quality. The problem with a new fuel cell is the same as with the old design, which is that in production they are still too expensive. But if somebody does come up with an efficient hydrocarbon burning fuel cell, then we can have our electric cars running on diesel fuel and that should be greate, if they give 10X or 25X more miles per gallon. And, of course, if they are simple to build and maintain, and don't cost a huge amount. I did hear about a person built one prototype fuel cell that ran on unleaded gas and provided enough power to drive about 100 miles or so on one gallon. The problem is that it used up most of the worlds supply of that rarest element, unobtainium, which is very hard to get.


March 2, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
settingitstraight commented:

Paul, what are you talking about? Nanosolar is an amazing startup that is now ramping up quickly. Yes, many people don't understand what it takes to bring a new process to high volume production but that's how long it takes. If you are using Nanosolar as an example, sign me up!


March 2, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
harikumar commented:

Well, idiots will remain idiots for ever. I was on my way back to home. It is next to impossible to get a taxi or a bus and I was walking through the crowded streets of Mumbai, when my Assistant told me about this wonder machine. Soon after arrival at my home I switched on the compute and went to Alternative Energy. I(t was full of blue box. I couldn't get sleep. I rang up my soninlaw in the US. But he was not available. But next day morning I got the call. It appears to be almost true and believable. Years ago there was a guy from the same area where Sreedhar is from. He invented some mechanism so that we could drive vehicles by using water. Ramor Pillai, that was his name, becamne the hero of the world. The scientific community including the Principal Science Secretary to the Government of India certified the genuiness of the new invention. And a leading Company came to promote the invention. But it didn't take long to realize the hoax, the inventor was playing. Fortunately for him, the Government couldn't put him behind the bars. Then I was the photos of the Governor of California, Colin Powell edtc. etc. singing volumes for the inventor. Not only so there was seventeen, not one or two, big companies from the United States of America singing lullabies to the invention and the inventor. I could sleep comfortably. But now you come with all these nasty comments and again I have to continue with my day dreaming. Pretty bad. Isn't it? Ultimately when will be come to know the truth? I am already seventy and it is for certain that I am not going to be around for another seventy years. I am not an engineer or scientist. I am an ordinary mortal like majority of the species all over the world and it is not fair for those who know the abc and xyz of things to put us in to sleepless nights. If sone one has the correct or neary correct answer mail me the recipe at mkhkmr@gmail.com


March 1, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Andy T commented:

Come on Paul. Everybody knows the Fiero started becoming a threat to the flagship/margin-leader Corvette when it went from econo-bucket commuter car, which is how the Turkish program leader (can't recall his name) sold the program to GM, to twin turbo, 300HP, wheelying V6 prototype that every GM employee got to hear about and some got to see and drive - the enthusiasm for it was unbridled (remember what a POS the 1984 'vette was in terms of gas mileage and performance apart the small run "King of the Hill" version with the outboard motor in it?) and word quickly got around that it was a "Corvette killer". You grouse on plastic panels, but the mill and drill at once of epoxy-filled body-mount pockets, zeroing out of body fit tolerances was DECADES ahead of its time, and it as a pioneer in space frame construction techniques and design that have been used in the Corvette C5 and C6 that are serious Ferrari/Porsche threats (apart from bragging what you paid for it). You also failed to mention the Saturn, which continued to this day to use RIM plastic body panels, taken from the Fiero recipe. You also seem to be a proponent of getting rid of ALL THAT PLASTIC in a modern car - yeah, let's go back the red-painted steel dash of my 1961 Ford Falcon... Yes, the Fiero was a female-dog to paint - I got one of the first red Fieros and had to wait four months, after ordering it on the very day the car as introduced and had pricing, until they got anything but black and white paint to stick to the plastic. A minor front ender into the rear of my buddy's 1973 'vette ('vettes stop better, kids) had me put on an "Indy Fiero" front end, but three trips to the body shop and the paint in the field just wouldn't stick no matter how much prep they did. A cracked block at 33k miles has my 1984 Fiero now undergoing "environmental testing" in a wet part of the Left Coast and is a serious contender for the 65HP electric motor I picked up a few years ago. That same 4-banger "Iron Duke" that got 33MPG, also was prone to cracking, heads especially. I drove the car hard, but it still got good gas mileage - in retrospect was a ton better than the Mitsu AWD Eagle Talon Turbo that replaced it. As far as fuel cells' hype goes - it's simply momentum, leftover from GW Bush sanctioning a hydrogen economy - few realize it was on behalf of his Texas oil buddies who had a glut of NATURAL GAS, the feedstock for large scale industrial hydrogen production, something I found out sitting next to the largest hydrogen producer's GM&VP on a flight out of Allentown one day. The fantasy of hydrogen from water is left to high school experiments and MIT research hype - you can't crack the H-O-H bonds for low energy input, and that is both science and engineering REALITY. Energy storage and portability carries a price - that's ENGINEERING reality, as you point out. As far as hype and pushing snake oil for financial gain, that's MARKETING & MBA reality.


March 1, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Greenhouse editor commented:

Love the line "Science simply has to work. Engineering has to work and be cheaper than other things that work."


March 1, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
Friend of USA commented:

I saw a report on Vermont PBS/ the news hour about the Bloom Box and the inventor sounded MUCH more like a sales man than a scientist as he never answered ANY questions he was asked... nor did he ever mention his bloom box uses conventional fuels such as diesel,oil and natural gas, and never did he say a bloom box generates a lot of heat. He was too busy doing a sales pitch...which reminded me of the oxyclean guy and the shamwow guy... This guy has a box that works at 800 degrees and can run as high as 1800 degrees BUT no one asks »what about global warming which is going to kill us all?» I have serious doubts about not only the bloom box but about the honesty of the people behind it.


March 1, 2010
In response to: Bloom Energy, fuel cells or fool’s cells?
whoa commented:

There... feel better? Does personalizing global warming and financial collapse help?

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