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Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Correlating Compass, Distance And Frequency

July 30, 2008

Continued from ‘Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Encouraging (Albeit Erratic) Early Results‘…

When I did an auto channel search on the Syntax Olevia 237T, here’s what I came up with:

Call Sign

Channel

Network

Quality

4.1 (ATSC)

KRNV-DT

NBC

Excellent

4.2 (ATSC)

KRNV-DT

NBC

Excellent

4.3 (ATSC)

KRNV-DT

NBC

Excellent

8 (NTSC)

KOLO

ABC

Poor

11 (NTSC)

KRXI

Fox

Very Good

11.1 (ATSC)

KRXI-DT

Fox

Excellent

11.2 (ATSC)

KRXI-DT

Fox

Excellent

21 (NTSC)

KAME

UPN

Poor

30 (NTSC)

KAME (translator, location unknown)

UPN

Good

33 (NTSC)

KTVN (translator, Peavine Peak)

CBS

Good

42 (NTSC)

KNPB (translator in Verdi-Mogul)

PBS

Good

51 (NTSC)

KRNV (translator, location unknown)

NBC

Poor

Excellent: pristine audio and video quality, absolutely no artifacts
Very good: minor audio and/or video distortion
Good: somewhat fuzzy picture and/or sound, but still discernable
Poor: highly distorted picture and/or sound; unwatchable

The Syntax Olevia’s 237T auto-tuning algorithm seemed to be pretty accurate, since my subsequent manual entry of every other possible broadcast channel resulted in a ‘no signal’ indication from the television. Some thoughts on my results:

  • Whenever I’m able to tune in both the analog (NTSC) and digital (ATSC) broadcast of a particular station, the ATSC presentation is a few seconds’ delayed as compared to the NTSC version.
  • It was initially curious to me that I was able to solidly tune in the KRNV (NBC) ATSC broadcasts on VHF channel 7 (Summer Olympics in HD, here I come!), but not tune in the corresponding original NTSC broadcast on VHF channel 4. However, note that the ATSC broadcast antenna is at an 87° compass heading, 20.1 miles away on top of Slide Mountain, whereas the NTSC broadcast antenna is at 44°, 28.1 miles away (on Red Peak, in Sun Valley just a few miles north of Reno). Note, too, that I am able to (barely) tune into an unknown-location KRNV NTSC translator on channel 51.
  • The ATSC-vs-NTSC reception situation is reversed with respect to KOLO (ABC). In this case, I’m able to (barely) tune in the NTSC broadcast on VHF channel 8, but I can’t get the ATSC broadcast on channel 9…even though both the NTSC and ATSC broadcast antennas are in the same location…which is the same location as KRNV’s ATSC antenna…whose signal (as mentioned above) I can receive with no problems whatsoever! Very strange. Perhaps broadcast signal strength differences explain the KRVN-vs-KOLO disparity, or maybe there’s some local interference that degrades one VHF channel’s signal but not another’s. Or mebbe KOLO’s broadcast towers are highly directional (towards Reno to the east)…or the towers are on the eastern side of the ridge line, thereby attenuating their to-west signal strength. Anyone know?
  • What about CBS affiliate KTVN? I can’t tune in either the NTSC broadcast on VHF channel 2 or the ATSC broadcast on VHF channel 13 (not listed at AntennaWeb, but information is here). Like its KOLO (ABC) and KRNV (NBC) peers, KTVN’s ATSC tower is supposedly located on Slide Mountain just to the southeast of Mt. Rose, which is 20 miles away and visible to the naked eye from my front porch, so again I’m not sure why I’m able to get KRNV’s ATSC signal but not KTVN’s. With respect to KTVN’s primary NTSC signal, it originates 10 miles further away (i.e. due south of Reno), on top of McClellan Peak and at roughly the same compass heading, so the intervening Mt. Rose Range probably explains my non-reception of it. Note that I am able to tune into a NTSC translator at UHF channel 33 located on Peavine Peak, northwest of Reno. Also, as a note to researchers…according to chief engineer Jack Antonio, KTVN’s NTSC tower used to be on Red Peak, and you’ll still find references to it there if you do a Google search, but it’s now in the location I reference above.
  • How about Fox affiliate KRXI? The news is uniformly good here. The NTSC broadcast on VHF channel 11 is very good, as is the ATSC broadcast on UHF channel 44. The common broadcast location is at a 34° compass location, roughly 23 miles away (again, Peavine Peak).
  • KAME (UPN), not listed by AntennaWeb, shares some infrastructure resources with KRXI, but clearly not the same antennas. I can barely tune in the primary NTSC broadcast on UHF channel 21, and I can’t receive the ATSC broadcast on UHF channel 20. Both originate at the same Red Peak location as KRNV’s primary NTSC signal (which as mentioned above I also can’t tune in). Again, the mountain ranges between here and there likely explain the scant-to-no reception. However, I can also receive in a location-unknown NTSC reflector on UHF channel 30, with better quality than the channel 21 primary signal.
  • And PBS affiliate KNPB? Its VHF channel 5 NTSC and UHF channel 15 ATSC signals also both originate from Red Peak, so predictably I can’t get ‘em. But I can tune into a Verdi-Mogul-area NTSC translator on VHF channel 42. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect, that it’s located somewhere on top of the Verdi Range.
  • Finally, we turn to CW affiliate KREN, at UHF channels 26 (ATSC) and 27 (NTSC), and NTSC LPTV channel 46 (UHF) KAZR. Once again, neither is reported by AntennaWeb, but Wikipedia’s listing of television stations in the Reno, NV area includes them. KREN’s broadcast signals come from Slide Mountain, but I can’t get ‘em. Nor can I tune in KAZR, which originates on Red Peak.

As I mentioned during NAB (as well as two weeks beforehand), the NTSC translators (along with, for that matter, Reno’s LPTV station) aren’t required to ’sunset’ next February even if full-power broadcasters’ primary NTSC signals gets shut off. I’ll be curious to see what each affiliate decides to do here. I hope the translators don’t go away, because in several cases they are the only way I can get the broadcasters’ signals!

See anything else intriguing in the data I’ve presented, folks? I’ll continue experimenting over the coming weeks and will report back interesting data points (and analyses, and conclusions) I uncover. For example, I’d like to:

Posted by Brian Dipert on July 30, 2008 | Comments (3)

February 5, 2010
In response to: Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Correlating Compass, Distance And Frequency
Install Software commented:

Another great post. Thanks for the tips and help. Everyone, bookmark this site.


August 2, 2008
In response to: Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Correlating Compass, Distance And Frequency
Mike M commented:

Welcome to the exciting world of DTV! I would suggest running a TVFool.com plot for your location. Antennaweb is very conservative and I have found TV Fool''s results to be much more informative. Stations below -105dBm can be very tough to receive, while those above -80dBm should be relatively easy. If you have no stations above -70dBm, a pre-amp will likely help. As respects channel 4, I would not expect a UHF antenna to have a chance on this Low-VHF station. Some UHF antennas are passable for upper VHF 7-13, but their patterns in that band can be hard to predict. Antennas Direct would do well to avoid marketing this antenna for the "entire" DTV band. Technically, the DTV band is 2-51 for post-transition (2-69 presently). VHF 2-6 will/is rarely used for DTV, but VHF 7-13 will be widely used come next February. I would suggest getting a real upper VHF antenna, such as a Winegard YA-1713 (be warned that it''s not small), to supplement your UHF antenna. I put one of these in my attic and it works great there. Attics tend to not hurt VHF as much as UHF. Good luck!


July 30, 2008
In response to: Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Correlating Compass, Distance And Frequency
Larry M commented:

Make that a really good A/B switch. I tried a Radio Shack unit which completely killed (100%) my UHF ATSC channels 51, 53, 55, 57, and 59. A friend gave me a broadcast quality unit which worked fine. Now I find out that come Feb 2009, all the stations will jump channels and mine go from the 50s to 11 (high VHF) to 20s and 30s (low UHF). I need a new antenna (windstorm damage) but am waiting until new units cut to end at chsnnel 51 are available. Brian, how about posting comparative data between the ClearStream, a new 8-bay bowtie, and a large Yagi? Particularly, address the case of strong multipathed signals arriving at 22 degrees off axis. Thanks

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