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Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?

March 27, 2007

Austin Energy, the utility owned and run by the city of Austin, TX, currently gets 6% of its power from wind generators, which unfortunately produce most of their power at night, when energy usage is low. Austin needs most of its power during the day. So, according to the article in the Wall Street Journal, “In a quest for cleaner energy, Texas city touts plug-in car”, (sorry, requires subscription) Austin Energy’s Clever Plan is to charge up the relatively massive batteries which are inherent in electric drive vehicles (EDVs) at night with wind-generated energy, then with draw it during the day, after the EDVs have been driven to work and are sitting in parking garages which have been plumbed with cables that discharge the batteries to the city grid. The article says Austin isn’t the only city looking at creative ways to store and retrieve energy – California’s Bay Area Rapid transit System (BART) is looking into a similar scheme for tapping EV batteries sitting unused during the day in commuter parking lots.

The concept of using EV batteries as energy reservoirs during the day to power the larger grid is called vehicle-to-grid-power, or V2G. The idea originated with Willett Kempton, an electrical engineer and associate professor at the University of Delaware in the late 1990’s, and he explored the idea with a company in San Dimas, California, AC Propulsion. Hey, AC Propulsion developed the charging system for the extremely cool Tesla. You can find on their site the pdf of the report they prepared with Kempton for the California Air Resources Board and the California Environmental Protection Agency. (Here’s the6-page Executive Summary, and here’s the full 94-page report, “Vehicle-to-Grid Power: Battery, Hybrid, and Fuel Cell Vehicles as Resources for Distributed Electric Power in California.” This report was done in 2001, and apparently there has been little additional research done in the interim, indicating the idea hasn’t exactly taken the world by storm.

The report addresses the common-sense impression that the concept is impractical from the git-go because relying on the availability of this hypothetical fleet of EDVs is too uncertain – what if they’re all driving around downtown Austinjust when you need them? The report addresses this concern: “Although any one vehicle's plug availability is unpredictable, the availability of thousands or tens of thousands of vehicles is highly predictable and can be estimated from traffic and road-use data. For example, peak late-afternoon traffic occurs during the hours when electric use is highest (from 3-6 pm). A supposition one might have from driving, that the majority of the vehicles are on the road during rush hour traffic, is false. We calculate that over 92% of vehicles are parked and thus potentially available for V2G power production, even during peak traffic hours of 3-6 pm.” So sometimes common sense, or relying on intuition can lead you astray. I’m not ready to embrace V2G, but it’s definitely out-of-the-box thinking.

Posted by Margery Conner on March 27, 2007 | Comments (13)

February 19, 2008
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
A Dose of Reality commented:

Why don't we just go 100% Nuclear for electric power generation then the whole problem goes away. And no, nuke waste is not a problem, it can be reprocessed.


February 5, 2008
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
AST commented:

First of all, nobody stores power -- time for supposed "technical" editor Conner to review her basic units & physics. One stores ENERGY, kitten. The cycling inefficiency and wearout mechanism of the batteries in question have to been addressed, not to mention the huge reuse & disposal aspects of the problem. Uncontrolled energy flows and uneven densities across huge areas make for an uncontrolled, terrorist/hacker-vulnerable network. Fuhgeddaboutit!


January 22, 2008
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Carl Spearow commented:

The whole EV-to-Grid plan seems to assume EVs have more battery capacity than necessary. This can not be true: the primary hurdle to building practical EVs thus far has been the inability to make batteries with adequate capacity. Why would I spend $10,000 on a big battery for my car, and then dump half of the charge every day before I drive home?


January 17, 2008
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Meredith Poor commented:

Many of the 'solar' battery banks are 530 AH x 6 v, or 3Kwh. A BTU is roughly 1000 watt/seconds, or .3 WH. A 12,000 BTU air conditioner ("normal" window unit) is cooling air at a rate of 4Kw, and maybe drawing 4.5Kw of electricity. Four 3Kwh batteries might occupy a volume of two to three cubic feet, essentially the same size as the air conditioner. The electric car, in comparison, would need two or three times that number of batteries, and you're using vast amounts of electricity just to haul around all that weight. For window units, batteries could be housed under the window (they should be outside the house). For central air they could be located next to the condenser. Using large battery banks to run Air Conditioners makes far more sense. BTW, Austin gets their wind from West Texas, such as the Guadaloupe Mountians, and from the Texas Panhandle. These wind farms are hard to miss on the satellite images.


September 17, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Dodger commented:

Why not just cut the fossil fuel generator back by 6% at night, and utilize the 6% you saved for the next day?


June 27, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Aussie Engineer commented:

There are so many absurdities here that I have to assume this was an April fool's day joke that just missed its slot.


June 27, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Dan Aquinas commented:

I have to assume that a significant amount of the electricity goes towards Air Conditioning? In which case, a different "energy storage" mechanism might be useful; that of freezing water during the night with the "excess" wind energy, and using it during the day for cooling. I am sure there are problems to work out, but seems a lot "greener" than lead-containing batteries, and possibly more energy efficient (i.e., freezing/using the water is more efficient than storing electricity in a chemical manner in a battery). I am no expert in this area, so would appreciate any corrections people may offer.


June 15, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Mike Mc commented:

A fully interactive system will come after the transition to IPv6, when every device, connection, person, etc. can have its own I-net address, and cheap easily-programmed controllers are developed... An application in another context: windshield wipers on = "it''s raining here"


April 17, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Mcqueen commented:

DWDaniel''s scenario, sounds like nightmaire, can be improved electronically. The wind charging and wall plug can apply at same time. In the early morming if the wind has not fully charged the battery, controller will activate the wall plug charge to pickup the rest.


April 16, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Lou B commented:

In order to gain the most from V2G work schedules would need to be motified to take pressure off the peak demand , allowing employees time to get home before the crunch, using less energy, and prepared to collect the wind. There are tracking, parabolic, concentrating, photovoltaic collectors,that produce 18to25kw that can be mounted on the normally dead space of a roof, providing shade, storage and lower energy needs for the building. Austin would then have dual power, wind and sun. The Catalyst to make it could be V2G.


April 12, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
DWDaniel commented:

Ok, This sounds like really good thinking...You charge the battery during the night, wake up and go to work...electric usage is low at that point, ya plug in and recharge using excess power available in the morning. Your car is fully charged by 3p.m. but you don't go home until 5:30, the grid sucks up your EXCESS energy from 3 to 5:30, you un plug and drive home. You're now nearly depleted, plug in start recharging...this recharge cycle could be staved off until when the wind usually picks up at 8:30 to 9 p.m. after the dinner dishes have been done and the kids are washed and in bed. Cooling is slightly less after dark, the grid has excess energy to spare and your car has time to recharge for tomorrows drive in.....sounds plausable to me.


March 29, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Gerry commented:

An even more promising V2G application is regulating "area control error" or ACE. In this application, the battery would be charged and discharged, to compensate for ACE. The 2001 report had a series of computational errors. One was that the authors assumed that the vehicle would be connected to a Level 3" charging system, which is a quick-charge connection. However, the Level 3 charger is intended to be quick charge, and not continuously connected to a single vehicle. The report should have used a Level 2 (long-term charger) or included the capital cost of the Level 3 charger in the V2G costs. Also, ther was no money going to the provider of this service; the authors assumed that all the revenue would flow to the vehicle owner. One of the unknowns is the rate of battery life degradation of the V2G option compared to conventional electric drive vehcicle use.


March 28, 2007
In response to: Electric car batteries might serve as reservoirs of green power?
Negg Nornock commented:

Has consideration been given to the finite number of cycles the electric vehicle batteries can be charged/discharged? The real cost in this type of program needs to have that addressed as well.

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