L-Prize bulb price specs use the Captain Barbossa method: They’re more like guidelines
I really have only myself to blame for not carefully reading the text around the pricing table contained in the L-Prize requirements for the sales price of the L-Prize bulb. See, I thought that the L-Prize competition’s “target retail prices,” listed in the table below, were targets in the sense that you were supposed to hit them. Apparently not. Philips, the competition winner, announced in a joint webcast with the DOE last week that it would begin selling the bulbs in February for $50, not $22.
The text (pdf) clearly states that the prices in the table are after any rebates paid to consumers. (Those will be pretty generous rebates.) The text and table are as follows:
“As examples, target retail prices for the two L Prize replacement lamp categories are provided below. These are target retail prices to the consumer or end-user, after potential utility or retailer incentives are applied. These target retail prices are based on typical hours of use in residential applications, typical current electricity prices, and reasonable diminishing simple payback periods from energy savings.” (See table at bottom of page.)
And further on, the contest rules say: “The target prices above are provided as a rough guide only. Manufacturers are strongly encouraged to offer products at prices that will prove cost effective and attractive to buyers, and therefore more successful in the market.”
My sincere hope is that next month when the L-Prize bulbs hit the shelves of my local Home Depot, they will be selling at $22 each due to a subsidy of over half by the local utility, PG&E. We shall see.
[Pointer to the webcast article in LEDs Magazine is from LED design guru Doug Leeper. Thanks, Doug.]
And for those of you who didn’t see/don’t remember the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie: The reference in this post’s title is to Captain Barbossa, temporary captain of the Black Pearl, who, when challenged that he was in honor bound to respect the Pirate’s Code, observes that, “The code is more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules.”
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bdcst commented:
The only thoriated tungsten filaments I'm aware of are used in power vacuum tubes mostly for RF amplifiers, not household light bulbs. Of course, if you happen to have an old camping lamp mantle it might have been dipped in thorium salts. It makes a nifty check source for your geiger counter but could be a serious hazard if you replace it indoors allowing the dust to escape into the air you're breathing!
Andrew commented:
Brian,
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Not anymore.
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For the most part, the thorium has been replaced by rhenium.
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While thoriated tungsten filaments are still manufactured, this seems to be for specialty lighting (e.g., flashbulbs for cameras and automobile lights) rather than for use in ordinary incandescent lights.
www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q2224.html
Brian commented:
Andrew, tungston lamps are not free of hazardous substances either! The crystalline state of the tungston is controlled by adding a small amount of thorium, which is a radioactive alpha emitter, and is way more hazardous than mercury, gallium, lead, or arsenic. (This fact is not well known, but done). The bulb envelope is made of "leaded glass" which contains lead oxide. (The ROHS rules exempt lead in glass).
Every technology contains hazardous substances of one sort or another. The object is to minimize the impact (a lot fewer LED bulbs will be discarded, hopefully then either CFL or tungston lamps). The only way to eliminate hazardous substances for lighting is to work like caveman in the past and use sunlight only.
drich1937 commented:
Last evening I purchased a Philips 12.5 watt LED 830 lumen (A19) bulb for $13.97 at my local Home Depot (Marlborough, Massachusetts). The revious price was $24+change. They also had 1100 lumen A19 (15 watt?) Philip bulbs on the shelf for around $40. Why buy one of those when you can get more light from 2 830 lumen bulbs for $28? I had previously purchased the 12.5 watt LED's on sale several months ago for 12.97 at Home Depot.
My only concern with the Philips 12.5 watt LED is the relatively high base temperature (135F on my IR thermometer). My concern is the reliability of the electronic components in that base.
Scott commented:
There's more mercury released into the environment by a coal powered plant over the operating lifetime of a incandescent bulb, than there is mercury in a CFL.
Display Name commented:
The Home Depot bulb (model #409904) is rated at 800 lumens and 12 watts, but the L-prize bulb claims 910 lumens and 9.7 watts.
Andrew commented:
Chrisp, I chose incandescent bulb every time, but Congress eliminates this choice step by step.
I do not understand these people. Why???
LEDs contain arsenic and gallium, so they are really harmful for the environment.
CFLs contain mercury, thus being harmful too.
Incandescent bulb use harmless tungsten, safe for the environment, have spectrum closer to sun's light, and natural for human's eyes.
"No ill-effects were observed in patients given 25—80 g powdered tungsten metal by mouth as a substitute for barium in radiological examinations" Elsevier Science, 1986: 610-622
I do not understand the desire to prohibit cheap and superior technology and make people use more expensive and inferior one under the threat of force.
Why? Seriously, why would anyone do it?
If LEDs/CFLs/etc are so much better, people will voluntarily buy better technology.
If people do not want to buy this "better tech", then it is not better, it is worse.
Truly superior technology wins every time.
For example, carbon-arc lump went obsolete without government intervention.
LEDs are great in Christmas lights, and some night lights, and that's about it.
Chrisp commented:
Every time there is a discussion about light bulbs it brings out the libertarians and whiners. If you guys are engineers you should be able to choose a lightbulb that works and lasts. I can. If you can't - how do you manage to keep a job as an engineer?
CEDUP commented:
I bought 4 PHILIPS AmbiLED not the L-Prize model, but the 12.2W for $14.95 at Home Depot 60W equiv, dimmable, great color, works great. On my Cassablance fan fixture w/ dimmer, so far perfection. $14.95! Not $50. Or anything close.
Andy T commented:
@dmitch: most closed ceiling fixtures are temperature rated in UL testing for 60W bulbs. original illumination design of the room, therfore, is at that level of lumens.
rphare commented:
After getting all exceited about CFLs, then being burnt by their short lifetimes, I think I'll wait a bit to see how the "cost-effective" thing works out for this new social experiment.
dmitch commented:
Hey, I'm all for saving and conserving energy. At our house we try our best, but what is it with the hoopla over 60 watt (equivalent) bulbs anyway?
For reading and a nearby area light, 100 watts is the norm in our place. Never mind that many fixtures won't accept the fat bases that both CFL's and LED's have. Even today, wander Lowe's or Home Depot and notice the fixtures that are unusable with the new lamps.
And then there's this. Fires. I've seen at least a few reports of fires being started because of failure of the power mgmt circuits in those fat bases.
DLD commented:
Margery - This sentence, I believe, holds the key to the price confusion: "These target retail prices are based on typical hours of use in residential applications, typical current electricity prices, and reasonable diminishing simple payback periods from energy savings."
What I think that says is that if the 60W equiv. lamp saves the purchaser $28 in electical costs (typical) over one year, than a $50 lamp price to the consumer is REALLY only $22.
You just have to speak government.
hobanhemi commented:
jtrantow, that is not the bulb in question. The bulb in question was part of a government competition/grant program to design and mass produce a light bulb that met much higher efficiency standards.
hobanhemi commented:
What would you expect from a government contract? A BIG loophole allowing the government to subsidize someone without requiring results and leaving the taxpayers with no benefits to their investment. Sounds ALOT like Solyndra
jtrantow commented:
The Home Depot web site shows Philips 12-Watt (60W) Ambient LED A19 Light Bulb
Model # 409904 Store SKU # 888865
Store SO SKU # 888865 at $24.97 /EA-Each Limit 10 per Order available in store.
